Comparison of Mormonism and JWism

by alex 32 Replies latest jw friends

  • alex
    alex

    I'm thinking that the mind-control games are very very very very much the same between Mormonism and JWism. I've lurked here for a while and thought I'd introduce myself.

    My name is Alex and I'm an unbelieving Mormon who lives in Utah. I used to be very active. I served a 2 year mission. I was a Bishop's counselor and I know the organization very well and several friends of mine have fathers who are in the Mormon equivalent of the "Governing Body". Then about 15 months ago I discovered that the Book of Mormon is fiction and that unraveled my faith. I then discovered many other issues which also didn't make any sense except to say that Mormonism is a manmade organization. Now I consider Mormonism to be a dangerous mind-controlling organization and I want to get out. But for the moment I'm a closet doubter until I have the courage to break free from the chains of Mormonism.

    I would like to find out what you all think and how your organization is structured because you exJWs have such a similar story to us exMormons. How did we all get stuck in a mind-controlling organization? Fortunately I'm still young and able to break away. Its got to be hard on those who are much older.

    If you ever have any questions about the real scoop on Mormonism but you don't want to offend Mormon friends, co-workers or the missionaries then please let me know. All of my family is still in the religion and its been very difficult for me. They believe that I have rejected God and that I'll be damned because I've given in to Satan. I still try to live a good life but they'll never accept this as long as I don't once again become a true believer in Mormonism.

    I'm curious to know how the JW organization is organized. I see alot of abbreviations I don't understand. What is the Borg? Bethel? GB? CO? DC? DFed? etc.

    I'm confident that I can pretty much get you answers to any questions you might have in Mormonism. I was just as much into it as all of you seem to have been in JWism so I hope you'd consider me a reliable source of information. But I wouldn't blame you if you don't trust me. I have a hard time trusting anybody now that I've gotten informed that my religious leaders were liars. I'm glad for the internet message board at exmormon.org because those people there really helped me get through this difficult journey. The Mormon church leadership is scared about the Internet because it allows for members to communicate with each other about their real questions since the Church makes it very uncomfortable for members to ask any questions.

  • Gopher
    Gopher

    Alex,

    Hello and thanks for posting. My only exposure to Mormons was when I went to a Witness convention held in Salt Lake City in 1974. Our family took a tour of the Mormon tabernacle, I can't remember why. But I do remember how unusually friendly people were as we walked through the city.

    I was, you could say, born into the JW organization, and left last year at age 39. I thought it was the "only true way" to God. Our exposure to other belief systems was always in a negative context.

    To answer some of your questions: What is the Borg? Bethel? GB? CO? DC? DFed? etc.

    The Borg is the nickname we "outsiders" give to the organization of the Watch Tower Society, headquartered in Brooklyn, New York. Borg = Brooklyn org.

    Bethel = Any of the many branch offices around the world where volunteers live to support the printing work and the oversight of the work JW's do in various places around the world. There are slightly over 100 branch offices of the WTS worldwide.

    GB = The Governing Body, the supreme decision-making council of Jehovah's Witnesses.

    CO = Circuit Overseer, a travelling representative of the WTS whose area usually encompasses about 20 congregations. They visit each congregation about twice per year to share in the door to door ministry with the locals, to give talks, to help with congregational matters, and to make sure the local congregation is doing things the way the central WTS wants them to.

    DC = District Convention. Held once per year in hundreds of locations around the globe, usually in the summertime, this 3-day congress of the Witnesses is a long set of talks, demonstrations, skits, singing. Through the convention, the organization tries to instruct and encourage the JW's.

    DF = Disfellowshipping, the JW way of excommunication. If "serious" wrongdoing is reported to the elders, a committee of 3 elders will meet in secret with the individual to try to determine the wrongdoing and to try to set the sinner straight, or so they say. It can be for violating Bible law, or for having or discussing doubts about JW doctrine. The DF'ing penalty is very harsh, for every JW is expected to shun the disfellowshipped one. Even close family will treat the DF'd one quite differently. If a baptized JW no longer wants to be a Witness, they can disassociate (DA) themselves by writing a letter to the body of elders in their congregation.

    Hope some of this helps. There is a lot to know about this group and their rules and regulations.

    Feel free to post more, ask more questions. Welcome to our board.

    GopherEven if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there.
    Will Rogers (1879-1935)

  • Mulan
    Mulan

    (some of this is also posted on philo's thread)

    Welcome, Alex.
    The Borg: I always thought we said that because the dubs are so much like the Borg, on Star Trek the next generation. You know, a continuem, of mindless robots, going through the motions of life. But, I see the connection with what Gopher said too. "Brooklyn Org."

    About a year after I left the JW's, I went to work at a scrapbook store, owned and run by a Mormon family. Most of the employees were also Mormons, and about 8 months into my job, I quit, realizing I would never really be accepted there, and anything that went wrong had to be MY fault because it couldn't be one of their own. I just got sick of being blamed for things I hadn't done, and "kissing the owner's butt" everytime she walked into the store.
    Anyway, shortly after I started there, they found out I was an ex JW, and were all very interested in what had happened. They were licking their chops, I'm sure, thinking I would now join them. I assured them I was NOT looking for another place to go, but they kept at me. I would stress things that I knew they believed too, as being reasons for my leaving, like "they are the only true religion" and other things.

    I learned during that time, that they do drink caffeinated beverages, like Coke, and Mr. Pibb, and that coffee, the EVIL drink, has "many other bad things in it than just caffeine." I had to stifle a laugh. I asked about missionaries and why those 19 year old guys are called Elders. Not a satisfactory answer.

    At this time, there are two Mormon missionaries living next door to my cousin, in an nice apartment building. I see them arriving home quite often, and they are really nice young boys. They drive a very nice car, with bicycles on the back. I about died laughing the first time I saw that. They are obviously fellows with rich family, but still have to give the impression of being poor, by using the bikes.

    It's all nonsense. All religions are the same, with different weirdness in each. But all ultimately have the same ends, I think. The people can be good, and they can be crummy. It's the hearts that matter.

    Marilyn (a.k.a. Mulan)

  • alex
    alex

    Thanks for the info.

    OK so the BORG is headquartered in Brooklyn, NY. Who are the members of the Governing Board? How does someone become a member of the Governing Board? Elected? Chosen by the GB themselves? Who are the members? Where can I read their biographies?

    How are the 100 Bethels organized? Can I find a list of them online?

    How many circuit overseers? Are they paid full-time workers? part-time slaves? How are they chosen? What is their relation to the branch offices? Do you have branch office overseers?

    What do you call your congregations? We call them Wards in Mormonism and they usually have 600-800 members and they are headed up by three men called the Bishopric (a bishop and his 2 counselors). Who presides over the congregations? A group of Elders? How are they chosen?

    What does a person have to do to become an Elder, Pioneer, CO or member of the GB? Rank is so important in Mormonism. My family thought so much of me when I became a Bishop's counselor at age 27. They thought that surely I'd rise up in the ranks of Mormon leadership. But alas I learned the truth and really don't plan on living a lie my whole life.

    Don't get me wrong. Mormons are good people generally. Don't take my word on my criticisms of their faith. Find out for yourself. I say this because there still is a little fear in me that I'll burn in hell for speaking bad things about the Mormon leaders since I used to firmly believe that they were God's official witnesses on earth. I still have this little fear in me that "Rejecting Mormonism"="Rejecting God" and its hard to describe how painful such an idea can be.

  • Gopher
    Gopher

    Alex,

    Here's a link to biographical information about the Governing Body. There has been a reorganization in the last year, resulting in the Governing Body losing almost all their power. It's a little difficult for me to explain, maybe someone else can explain it better. Anyhow, here's the link: * http://geocities.com/osarsif/gb.htm

    I don't have time right now to answer all your questions, but I'll take on your questions about the congregations. They are simply called congregations, and the buildings where JW's gather are Kingdom Halls. Each congregation has a body of elders. New elders are appointed after being recommended by the local body of elders in conjunction with the travelling (circuit) overseer. The organization tries to keep the congregations under 150 members in size. Of course there are many small-town congregations with as few as 20 members.

    I believe what you say about Mormons being good people. I found my visit to Salt Lake City very pleasant. Some aspects of the Mormon doctrine have been scrutinized and criticized in Watchtower literature, so we have had some exposure to some aspects of LDS doctrine.

    You expressed the idea that rejecting one's former faith leads to anxiety about whether God approves of you or not. This is something a lot of us have had to deal with upon leaving JW's as well. The indoctrination and fear-based approaches are similar between the two groups. After a while many of us have come to the realization that if there is a God, he would not be so unreasonable as to force us to believe a bunch of nonsense or else condemn us! It's better to remove oneself from the nonsense, and then sometimes one's relationship with God (if they choose to cultivate one) is even better than before.

    GopherEven if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there.
    Will Rogers (1879-1935)

  • ianao
    ianao

    Hello 'yall.

    Check this out... http://www.exmormon.org/tract2.htm

  • seven006
    seven006

    Hi Alex,

    I'm the exJW guy (Dave) who popped into the exMorman site yesterday and received a hearty welcome.
    The people on that board are great. I posted there because I noticed from a little reading the similarities
    in the psychological fallout resulting from leaving both religions. The ex-Jws have a higher price to pay
    for leaving because of the shunning of all family members and friends that they had while in the religion.
    I see by the few boards that I participate on that the ex-Jws also show a lot more anger in relation to
    the position the religion puts them in because of the virtual kidnapping of family and friends. It is
    like a reverse prison sentence, they view us as the religious criminals and they lock up our loved ones
    to protect them from us.

    In both religions the fuel that keeps the motor running is complete obedience by the way of total mind control.
    The psychological damage resulting in one who opens their eyes and becomes honest with themselves thus rejecting a life long belief system
    is similar in both religions. The teachings themselves are miles apart but the process in which each gain control of their
    members hearts, minds, and souls are very similar. As long as you give any organization or group the power to control your
    perception of happiness in relation to what is proper and improper behavior you will never have the self-reliance to question rules
    that will open your eyes to the dangerous teachings.

    The bible which is the main rule book for most cults is interpreted in as many ways as it is translated. Being a book that is
    subject to individual interpretation it becomes the secret weapon to destroy any and all personal thought outside the religion that professes to
    have the absolute correct interpretation of its content. I see this tactic being used in both religions. Because of this little trick, the outcome
    in the way of seeing life after using your own brain to reject such teaching results in similar feelings and experiences.

    exMormans and ex-Jws have a lot in common in relation to life after religion. I can see in may instances where both groups
    could benefit from mutual discussions and exchange of feelings and experiences. I look at it as we have both jumped out of different
    windows of the same sinking ship. I think the mindsets are pretty much the same, "we got duped". If we can help each other and make a few new friends along the way then it makes the decision we made a lot easier to deal with. Especially since we don't have to share our coke's and Pepsi's with you guys.

    If you stick around this site I think you will find it a lot rowdier than the exMormans site. There are more cowboys and indians on this site
    and a good portion of the time they don't play nice. It makes for some good "R" rated entertainment.

    Nice to meet you Alex and I hope you get all your questions answered. I myself hate talking about the JW details, I come here for the laughs.

    Dave

  • JUSTAMOM
    JUSTAMOM

    Hello and welcome

    Yes I too was raised in the Wt all my life with my husband and siblings. I did a little research on the net after coming out cause I too saw such great similarities.

    The mormon church was founded basically by a young man, Joseph Smith.
    He was given a divine revelation by an angel who chose to speak to him and told him he was to be used persay to help with the gathering of the true church in the time of the end. Although he was not to start a religion and organize. Well that didn't work.

    They use the book of Mormons with the bible but I've heard (may be wrong) that the book actually takes precedent over bible at times.

    They believe in disfellowshipping (shunning/excommunicating) but only real bad stuff. ANd someone who leves that church after being raised in it usually becomes shunned and viewed as turning over to the dark side. lol

    Exactly as the JWs.....

    Charles Russell as 26 year old man was interested in pure bible truth. His intention was not to set up an earthly organization (HA)

    Uses the WT as food at the proper time and banks on its teachings even over the bible. (even though they deny this)

    If you have been raised a JW and leave the 'true' church you are an apostate and therefore, disfellowshipped and shunned. Given over to the dark side because you have left God by disagreeing with the men upstairs and the literature they produce.

    Very mind controlling cult. On the outside they look as though they produce GOOD strong families and values. Honest citizens. A true brotherhood.
    For some that their hearts are sincere, they are trying to live this way for God although the guilt of NEVER measuring up always stares you in the face.
    Many others KNOW they are never going to be good enough so they look one way on the outside and practice deceit and hypocrisy in the dark. As long as the elders don't catch you at anything, it doesn't matter what God sees. Fear and guilt are the main ingredients to keeping these poor people enslaved.

    AND IT WORKS!

    30's enslaved in the WT. Set free 3 1/2 years ago by my lord. NOW I don't have to slave for two masters. The Wt and Jehovah...
    My lord is my master. It is HIS work I want to accomplish.

    Christian love

    JUST A MOM (Kim)

  • claudia
    claudia

    Alex, I have mormons coming to vistit me tomorrow again, can you give me some questions to ask them? Is there a secret handshake? thanks in advance

  • alex
    alex

    You may not make sense on this whole suggestion list but I guarantee you that the following steps are a sure program for getting honest mormon missionaries to seriously reconsider their faith. Had somebody really done a good job like this I would have saved myself years and tens of thousands of dollars of tithes and not gotten into a marriage where I'd eventually be an unbeliever married to a believer.

    (A) Ask them to read the following from their Gospel Principles manual chapter 31 on Honesty verbatim:

    Complete honesty is necessary for our salvation. An Apostle of the Lord has said: "Honesty is a principle of salvation in the kingdom of God. … Just as no man or woman can be saved without baptism, so no one can be saved without honesty" (Mark E. Petersen, in Conference Report, Oct. 1971, p. 63; or Ensign, Dec. 1971, p. 72). God is honest and just in all things (see Alma 7:20). We too must be honest in all things to become like him. The brother of Jared testified, "Yea, Lord, I know that thou … art a God of truth, and canst not lie" (Ether 3:12). In contrast, the devil is a liar. In fact, he is the father of lies (see 2 Nephi 9:9). "Those who choose to cheat and lie and deceive and misrepresent become his slaves" (Mark E. Petersen, in Conference Report, Oct. 1971, p. 65; or Ensign, Dec. 1971, p. 73). Lying is intentionally deceiving others. Bearing false witness is one form of lying. The Lord gave this commandment to the children of Israel: "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour" (Exodus 20:16). Jesus also taught this when he was on earth (see Matthew 19:18). There are many other forms of lying. When we speak untruths, we are guilty of lying. We can also intentionally deceive others by a gesture or a look, by silence, or by telling only part of the truth. Whenever we lead people in any way to believe something that is not true, we are not being honest. The Lord is not pleased with such dishonesty, and we will have to account for our lies. Satan would have us believe it is all right to lie. He says, "Yea, lie a little; … there is no harm in this" (2 Nephi 28:8). Satan encourages us to justify our lies to ourselves. Honest people will recognize Satan’s temptations and will speak the whole truth, even if it seems to be to their disadvantage. People use many excuses for being dishonest. People lie to protect themselves and to have others think well of them. Some excuse themselves for stealing, thinking they deserve what they took, intend to return it, or need it more than the owner. Some cheat to get better grades in school or because "everyone else does it" or to get even. These excuses and many more are given as reasons for dishonesty. To the Lord, there are no acceptable reasons. President Kimball taught that when we excuse ourselves, we cheat ourselves and the Spirit of God ceases to be with us. We become more and more unrighteous. (See Faith Precedes the Miracle, p. 234.) To become completely honest, we must look carefully at our lives. If there are ways in which we are being even the least bit dishonest, we should repent of them immediately. When we are completely honest, we cannot be corrupted. We are true to every trust, duty, agreement, or covenant, even if it costs us money, friends, or our lives. Then we can face the Lord, ourselves, and others without shame. President Joseph F. Smith counseled, "Let every man’s life be so that his character will bear the closest inspection, and that it may be seen as an open book, so that we will have nothing to shrink from or be ashamed of" (Gospel Doctrine, p. 252). http://library.lds.org/library/lpext.dll/Curriculum/home%20and%20family.htm/gospel%20principles.htm/3-unit00050/honesty%20chapter%2031.htm?fn=document-frame.htm&f=templates&2.0 (Gospel Principles, 1997, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Chapter 31)

    B) Tell the missionaries that your research into the Book of Mormon has uncovered the following issues:

    1) Latter-day prophets and scripture have clearly taught that the Book of Mormon is an actual historical record (in other words – its not fictional like the "Chronicles of Narnia" or "Star Wars") even though its primary purpose is supposed to be spiritual in nature.

    2) Latter-day prophets and scripture have clearly taught that the Native Americans are predominantly Hebrew in origins and the literal descendants of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Father Lehi (an actual man who migrated to the Americas from the land of Jerusalem approximately 2600 years ago).

    3) Latter-day prophets and scripture have clearly taught that the Book of Mormon Lamanite/Nephite people were a large group or civilization that covered a large portion of the Americas.

    4) The Book of Mormon and Latter-day prophets have clearly taught that when Father Lehi arrived in the Americas that there were no other significant groups of people here except for perhaps the Jaredites who were soon extinct.

    5) DNA studies have become very accepted in the scientific community for determining the historical migrations and origins of mankind. In fact scientists at BYU are now successfully using DNA evidence to help carry forward the Church’s mission to do genealogy work and redeem the dead.

    6) The DNA evidence strongly suggests significant differences between the DNA markers of known Hebrew groups with those of primarily Mongolian/Siberian groups.

    7) DNA studies have been used in very recent times to show that there are specific genetic markers (i.e. minor genetic mutations) that Hebrew people have which are not found in other groups of people and that DNA evidence has been used by groups in the reaches of Africa and Asia to prove that they are indeed of Hebrew origins. In these cases the leaders and experts in Israel have changed their opinions and welcomed these groups to immigrate into Israel as "blood brothers/sisters".

    8) The DNA evidence strongly suggests that no significant (or even minor) group of Native Americans have been found who have the unique genetic markers found in the DNA of the known Hebrew groups.

    9) The DNA evidence strongly suggests that the Native Americans and Mongolian/Siberian groups are closely related and supports the long-held theories in linguistics, anthropology, archaeology and other sciences that the Native Americans primarily descendants of migrants from the Mongolian/Siberian region of Asia.

    10) Even though the evidence is very strong its important to remember that research in DNA and Genetics is still progressing and it may still be too soon to draw firm conclusions.

    11) The predominantly accepted theory of LDS scholars and apologists is that the "Book of Mormon" people were only a very small group and were in a very small area geographically and that nobody seriously has ever taught that they were ever a large group or large civilization that covered a large portion of the Americas.

    12) Another popular theory of many LDS scholars and apologists is that the group of Lehi who were of Hebrew descent arrived in the Americas approx. 600 BC and merged in with the natives who were of Mongolian descent and that’s how the principal ancestors of the Natives were of Hebrew origins even though the scientific evidence shows that they are Mongolian.

    13) A much less popular theory of LDS scholars and apologists is that the scientists are actually wrong and that future research will show that the Natives are indeed descendants of Hebrews. Most of the scholars and apologists in the Church who know about the scientific evidences accept what the scientists are finding and ignore the theories that the Native Americans’ principal ancestors were a large civilization who were of Hebrew origins.

    14) The Church claims that its true IF and ONLY IF the Book of Mormon is true.

    If the missionaries ask how you compiled this list. Tell them you got it off of the Internet from a member of a Stake Presidency who is currently still in just for the sake of family but has read the Book of Mormon about 23 times. I can get you plenty of evidence to backup the following statements and tell the missionaries that they better.

    (C) Remind the missionaries what their own Missionary Guide says:

    There are many useful tools available to help missionaries (whether they are Full-Time, Stake, or Members) in their callings. One of the most important tools produced by the Church in recent times is the Missionary Guide, 1988 edition. Most Missions and all of the Missionary Training Centers require their full-time missionaries to study the Missionary Guide principles and skills on a daily basis so its safe to assume that the skills listed here from the Missionary Guide are in line with the thinking of the leaders of the Church. A few conclusions that are important to remember for this document are:

    Testify of what you teach (rather than off on a tangent)
    Maintain an equal relationship and don’t sound better than they are.
    Be simple, clear, direct and use words that investigators will understand.
    The Spirit testifies of truth so tell the truth in order to have the Spirit which matters the most.
    Show those you teach that you are genuinely concerned and sincerely care.
    Restate or summarize in your own words what they say to see if you understood them correctly.
    Pause after you ask a question to let others gather their thoughts and express their feelings.
    Be careful to not jump to conclusions.
    Try to understand the thoughts and feelings of others.
    Ask questions that help them share their feelings and beliefs to find out if they understand a principle.
    Don’t ask ‘yes’/’no’ questions when finding out if someone understands a principle.
    Don’t ask manipulative questions designed to make the investigator give the answer you want.
    Ask questions that maintain an equal relationship between you and them.
    Ask questions that show you respect what they have to say.
    Sincerely try to find out their feelings and concerns.
    Do not make them feel that you are interrogating them.
    "Find Out" skills are important to help them discuss their feelings and prepare them to feel the Spirit.
    Empathy is the ability to put yourself in another’s situation and share his thoughts and feelings.
    Empathy is also looking at things from the other’s point of view rather than yours.
    In showing empathy, you must mean what you say.
    Expressing empathy that you do not really feel offends people and does more harm than good.
    You are responsible to help others resolve their concerns.
    People may hesitate to share their concerns.
    Your attitude will often determine whether or not people will share their concerns.
    one of your biggest challenges will be finding out what their concerns are.
    Show that you care for others by listening to them and showing that you understand them.
    Let them know that the concern has not damaged your relationship.
    Missionaries often wrongly feel that they need to resolve concerns by bearing testimony or by sharing experiences, scriptures, and examples.
    In many situations, however, the best way to resolve concerns is to simply help others discover their own solutions.
    Tell them that you are confident he will make the right decisions.
    Be able to explain unfamiliar ideas to others and help them discover what they need to do to resolve their concerns.
    One of your most important responsibilities as a missionary is to help others identify and resolve their concerns.

    D) Let the missionaries know there are several other issues that you have concerns about and that your concerns need to be resolved.

    1) Translation of the Book of Abraham facsimiles
    2) Plagiarism from Masonry in Endowment
    3) Polygamy in Nauvoo, 1835 D&C 101, Breaking Illinois Polygamy Laws
    4) Plagiarism from Shakespeare and Anglican Church in Book of Mormon
    5) Kinderhook Plates
    6) MMM

    There are others but this is a good start. If you do a good job you may save 2 missionaries alot of heartache in life from devoting themselves to a false cause. Good luck and let me know if I can be of additional assistance.

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