rove about

peacefulpete

Ok Blondies review of the WT got me thinking, Dan 12:4 speaks of somone 'roving about and knowledge becoming abundant'. What a strange expression. Like most obscure passages they are easy to misuse as this weeks WT demonstrated (and others similarly)by saying roving about meant searching through the Bible. Ok then what was the expression to mean to the 2nd century BC audience?

The Hebrew is very obscure here and so the LXX has been consulted leading Hartman and Di Lella to translate it as :Many will apostasize and evil will increase."

Also:

NJB	"But you, Daniel, must keep these words secret and keep the book sealed until the time of the End. Many will roam about, this way and that, and wickedness will continue to increase."

NRS	"But you, Daniel, keep the words secret and the book sealed until the time of the end. Many shall be running back and forth, and evil shall increase."

SGAT	"And now , O Daniel, bind up the words, and seal the book till the time of the end; for many shall prove disloyal, and troubles shall be many."

KTC	For thyself, Daniel, keep this revelation locked away; sealed up in the record of it must be until the hour appointed. Leave others to hasten to and fro, in search of knowledge. Footnote: The last part of this verse cannot be rendered with any certainty.

REB	"But you, Daniel, keep the words secret and seal the book until the time of the end. Many will rush to and fro, trying to gain such knowledge."

Even assuming "knowledge" was meant in a positive way not "evil" we are left to wonder if the author was alluding to Amos 8:12 with his :"many running to and fro" seeking God's words in vain. This giving the verse a meaning quite opposite the way it is often intepreted. In such a case the wicked are seen running about seeking or lost even though "knowledge is great/magnified". We see this reflected in some of the above translations.

It seems clear that these words are clear as mud. Any attempt to attach a key doctrine to this verse is playing fast and loose with the text.

Leolaia

I seem to find two different renderings for the LXX of Daniel 12:4, I suppose the Greek manuscript tradition is far from unanimous: "and knowledge is increased" (kai pléthunthé hé gnósis) vs. "and the earth will be filled with unrighteousness" (kai plésthé hé gé adikias). From what I have read, the translation of Theodotion has "knowledge" rather than "unrighteousness". If "unrighteousness is increased" lies behind the text, I wonder if there is a connection with Matthew 24:12: "wickedness shall increase (pléthunthénai tén anomian) ... and will cool off the love of the many (tón pollón)". Compare with Daniel 12:4 (combining the two readings): "go back and forth the many (hoi polloi), and unrighteousness is increased (pléthunthé hé adikia). The wording of the parallel logion in Didache 16:4 is slightly different: "as lawlessness increases (auxanousés gar tés anomias)".

Too bad the Qumran manuscripts of Daniel break off in ch. 11.

peacefulpete

That would be consistent with Matt's (and Mark's) interest in 'modernizing' Daniel. The references to chapt 12 such as the 'abomination' and the "tribulation such as has not occurred' and other more subtle allusions. So perhaps matty had a LXX recension that read "evil will increase". The 'many going to and fro' being interpreted as 'vacillating' (ie.not remaining strong). Or maybe thee was a Hebrew version more like the LXX reading and it was lost like you seem to be postulating. Intersting idea I wish I'd thought of it.

mkr32208

I don't know it seems pretty simple to me!

"This scroll is locked. Don't bother looking cause this one is locked up tight as a drum. Lots of a$$holes (read WBTS, Brownhole) will be running around trying to understand this but it ain't gonna happen cause this puppy is locked up! So if one of these loosers comes knocking on the door saying that they have managed to unlock it don't let them in cause they are evil and full of $hit..." markamiah 15:28

Maybe I'm the FDS class!!!!

Gopher

Daniel 12:4 always was puzzling. How does roving and meandering bring true knowledge, as the Watchtower literature claims?

Perhaps...they are alluding to the aimless wandering back and forth in their own doctrines, leading to an amassing of so-called "knowledge" (or a "body of truth") as they say.

I think the scripture about the last days written by Paul that says some are "always learning but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth" (2 Timothy 3:7) definitely applies to Jehovah's Witnesses. Their "truth" never is stable, it is ever-changing. For a great example of this, see this thread: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/86085/1.ashx

So how can it really be truth?

Leolaia

About the "roving here and there", it is important to recognize that v. 4 (and the verses that follow it) looks retrospectively to the time prior to v. 1-3, which constitute what happens subsequent to the "time of the end"; that is, the author viewed his own time as the "time of end", and the "prophecies" of the "time of the end" in ch. 11 are descriptions of recent events in the life of the author, while 11:45-12:3 constitute events still future (which, as it turns out, failed to come true). The allusion to the unsealing of the book in "the time of the end" in v. 4 is a literary device that explains how such a supposedly old book suddenly became distributed and read in 164-163 BC. Thus the "roving here and there" in the same verse should be understood in light of the military campaigns in ch. 11, which refer to "large and very powerful" armies and ships moving from the North (Syria) to the South (Egypt) and from Greece, "invading many countries", subduing the Libyans and Nubians, and then Antiochus went back to the North and to the East because of alarming reports (11:29-44), I think he was on a campaign to Persia when he died in 163 BC. This seems to be most likely what lies behind the expression in 12:4 which looks back to these campaigns that occur in the "time of the end" (that is, between 167-164 BC).

peacefulpete

Perhaps that was the author's in intention but how it was spun by readers living 230 years later is another thing. I like your hypothesis about connections to matt 24:12. Remind me the earlier post you made about vs. 13 "Enduring to the end ..be saved". I'm drawing a blank.

Narkissos

Fwiw:

LXX: until the many become crazy and iniquity is fulfilled.

Theodotion: until many are taught and knowledge increases.

On s(h)wt pi'el, cf. Jeremiah 5:1; Amos 8:12; Zechariah 4:10; 2 Chronicles 16:9.
Semantically similar to the qal, Numbers 11:8; 2 Samuel 24:2,8; Job 1:7; 2:2.

But there is a homonym attested in qal, Ezekiel 16:57; 28:24.26, "slight, despise"

hmike

Interesting thread!

The Bible translations I checked all render it something like "many will run here and there, and knowledge will increase."

Considering this concerns the end times, it brings to my mind something different and off-the-wall: I hear many people, especially in government, say that education is the answer to our social woes. It seems that our society has adopted the belief that if we just have enough information, we can solve any problem. So we have developed computers, satellites, and all kinds of technological innovations to collect and process information. Well, granted problems are solved, and even avoided, by having the right information, but where I see a problem is when ungodly actions create problems and even calamity, and we focus entirely on securing enough information to solve the problem, and don't pay attention to the spiritual condition that created the particular problem to begin with. This is all part of dropping God out, and even setting ourselves up as gods. So when we get into trouble, we won't turn to God, we will turn to scientists. Even beyond that, some people turn to mediums and psychics for information?clearly not in God's will.

So, maybe this "running around, increasing knowledge" refers to the way the world will attempt to handle the events of the end times?"If we can just collect enough information?both from conventional and unconventional sources?we can control these situations.

Now let me ask you, would you want to rely on the CIA for intelligence on the antichrist?

Valis

Now let me ask you, would you want to rely on the CIA for intelligence on the antichrist?

that is actually quite funny...I'm not sure whether it is your belief in the "end times" or in the CIA investigating who the antichrist would be...*LOL*

rove about

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