I wonder how far freedom of speech should go? If someone in a theater shouts "Fire" and it is a lie, yet people rush to the exits scrambling over each other and someone is hurt or dies, does his freedom of speech still apply?
Holocaust denier deported
by Kenneson 45 Replies latest jw friends
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talesin
Exactly. (sigh)
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Ianone
the media totally lied about Zundel. He was not a white supremacist and he did not deny a holcaust occured. He denied the 6 million figure. More smear and demonizatio tactics from the media.
see this
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Athanasius
Yes, tailsin, I am a dues paying member of the American Civil Liberties Union. And I am sorry that because of persecution that you have to use "Theocratic War Stategy" to camouflage the country of your birth. But take courage, you are free of the Watch Tower.
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Abaddon
I wonder how far freedom of speech should go? If someone in a theater shouts "Fire" and it is a lie, yet people rush to the exits scrambling over each other and someone is hurt or dies, does his freedom of speech still apply?
I take it that is a rhetorical question Kenneson; this is a well-known exception to freedom of speech. 8-)
Athanasius
Could you actually respond to points made? You rather simplistically state
Whether you agree or disagree with someone's opinions, once you begin suppressing freedom of speech, where does it stop? The laws that you use to suppress others can some day be used to suppress you.
I asked;
"So what do you do when the expression of certain people's opinions makes other people fear their safety or freedom? Neo-Nazis, Nazi apologists and their ilk, by their very expression of opinion, makes others fear for their safety".
I, and to be honest, most considered legal opinion, are happy to accept that freedom of speech is not an absolute right if it infringes on other freedoms. Hate speech infringes on the right people have to live without fear.
Denial of the Holocaust or obviously false minimisation of it is ALWAYS linked to aplogetics of Nazi policy and intention, as demonstrated below, as demonstrated by David Irving, as demonstrated by Realist (a poster here), as demonstrated by jjrizzo (another nazi apologist once a member of this board), as demonstrated by every revisionist I have encountered. Such implict support of a harmful and racist political ideology makes others live in fear, and reasonably so given the activities of far-right groups.
Do you protect the diseminators of hate or those who they direct their hate at?
If you change your simplistic view of freedom of speech to 'any speech which does not promote hate or harm of others or cause others to reasonably feel fear is a protected freedom', then we can all agree and have a drink.
Ianone
There's always one isn't there Ian? *sigh*
Look, provocative and unusual opinions are only impressive when they are backed by fact. You seem to have swallowed down the Nazi revisionist lies.
If someone makes false claims about eating carrots and people suffer as a result those people may sue and jail time may result.
If someone libels another, or slanders them, by making false statements, they may be sued and likewise suffer penalty under law.
I do not get the mentality of people who would consider that Richard Gere has a right to sue people who say he shoves gerbils up his anus (when he doesn't), but who think someone who says the Holocaust didn't happen (when it rather obviously did) should be allowed free rein.
So under law we can't say lies about stars, but millions of victims of the 3rd Reich can be lied about with impunity? Hahahahahaha. Yeah, of course that makes sense.
But LISTEN to Zundel;
"... first, bring down Jewish suffering in terms of numbers and events, both real and imagined, to what it really was, not what they say it was, what they exploit for their own political, financial, and geopolitical purposes." When asked to be more precise, he estimated total Jewish deaths from all causes under the Nazi regime as only about 300,000."
This is a provable lie.
"Why should we let parasites and liars live with their loot? They took it from Egypt (a reference to the Old Testament Exodus). They're not going to take it from the Germans."
This is obviously speech liable to result in harm to others, and is a lie.
"In our conversation he waxed eloquent about all of Hitler's accomplishments. He believes that Europe is only now 50 years later arriving where Hitler wanted it to be. Hitler, according to Zundel, evolved from being a German ultranationalist, to a Pan German, to a European. By the time the war ended, der Fuhrer had hit upon the idea of a "Europa ethnica," in which each ethnic group could live peacefully in its own little place.".
More lies and support of racist policies... and this is just a conversation with Zundel, it's not what he was convicted for!
(above quotes from http://www.mit.edu/activities/safe/writings/holocaust-rev)
His intentions in makng his claims are also important; 'The Hitler We Love and Why' by Christof Friedrich (pseudonym for Zundel; Christ of Fried Reich?... yes, quite... ) and Eric Thomson is an interesting case in point. Zundel is a true Hitler fan. Hitler was a nut with an avowed intention to wipe-out other races; I can provide you with support for this latter claim from Hitler's own mouth.
Now, you are free to be a Hitler fan if you are an ignorant racist bastard (and I doubt if you are Ian, but I am charcterising Hitler supporters here, not poor dupes supporting apologists over a misunderstanding of what their agenda is or what freedom of speech actually is).
However to lie and whitewash Hitler so as to garner support for Naziism? Read his comments (above link) about his book on Hitler and UFO's; it was a deliberate attempt to insert a pro-Nazi message in a book that makes claims the author plainly doesn't believe but realises will attract readers (especially those of the un-descriminating 'I read it some where it must be true' variety) and maybe convert some to 'the cause'.
Are you converted to the 'cause' Ian? Are you supporting the deliberate distortion of history by Nazi supporters to catch the ignorant and credulous? A bit like pedophiles who 'groom' children before sexually assaulting them...
If someone markets a product with false claims and harm results they are liable; how come marketing a harmful political philosophy with false claims carries, in some people's opinion, no liability? You would give stupid people driving away from McDonald's with a hot coffee cup between their knees more legal redress than victims of genocide or their relatives - be they Jews, gypsies or Rwandans.
Of course, if you are actually interested in the trial (like what happened rather than being thinking you are provocative and interesting when in fact you are just plain wrong), you can go here;
http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/resources/books/annual6/chap07.html
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Ianone
Ohh I understand now. if you critisize Israeli Foreign Policy, regardless of if you are white supremacist or not, you will still be labelled a nazi. So I guess all the Jewish defectors who expose Israel must be nazis too. lol
I dont tolerate groups of people or nations that try to persuade people that they are immune to critisizm. Israeli Arpatheid is apparent to any observer, regardlesso f that persons politcal/religous beliefs, and the Jewish Talmud is totally racist and evil against non jews to any observer who dares to read it.
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Kenneson
Zundel makes an effort to minimize the number of those who died during the Holocaust. As if that's supposed to make everything right. Let him try to peddle his garbage to the German authorities. See if he can convince them because he sure hasn't convinced me. But you can be sure of this, none of those who died in those concentration camps, whether through disease, malnutrition, over work or gas, did so because they wanted to be there. They weren't on a Nazi hosted vacation. I hope the remaining survivors all have their stories documented for reference to future generations, so that these liars can be held in check.
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Abaddon
ianone
Ohh I understand now. if you critisize Israeli Foreign Policy, regardless of if you are white supremacist or not, you will still be labelled a nazi. So I guess all the Jewish defectors who expose Israel must be nazis too. lol
Don't be an ass. He could have criticised Israeli foreign policy all day long and be free; if you assert otherwise please PROVE IT. Find someone, anyone, who has been imprisoned in the US, Canada or Europe for just criticising Israeli Foreign Policy.
Zundel has never been charged with 'criticising Israeli foreign policy'... he was charged with spreading false news, which he demonstrably did, just as Irving (another Nazi boot-licker) was proved in court to have lied (and thus lost the libel case he started, thus ruining himself finanacially... oh these Nazi-boys are really not too bright are they... )
But you seem to be happy to be ignorant; you were provided with links containing the trial details. Pity you are so convinced you and rense.com are right you're not bothering to check your facts.
As for him being a Nazi; I suppose he is a Nazi... only a Nazi would be craven enough to write a book about how much they love Hitler and why under a psyuodonym... oh, that's a false name in case you don't know. Of course, if you chose to entertain us with an explanation of how someone can write books about how much they love Hitler and NOT be a racist, we will dutifully laugh; at you, not with you.
I dont tolerate groups of people or nations that try to persuade people that they are immune to critisizm. Israeli Arpatheid is apparent to any observer, regardlesso f that persons politcal/religous beliefs, and the Jewish Talmud is totally racist and evil against non jews to any observer who dares to read it.
Please try to separate the issue of the awful conduct of Israel with regards to Palestine (they should know better, after all) with Neo-Nazi's, Nazi apologetics and revisionists claims regarding the Holocaust. Two wrongs do not make a right. (oh, quote some Torah to me oh leaned one... or is this another 'fact' you got of rense.com? ... god, this is like having someone base their degree dissertation on Ripley's Believe It Or Not ...)
Israel abuses human rights in Palestine, and the Holocaust did happen largely as it is understood to have happened. Both are true. IS that too difficult to understand? Oh, hang on, I'm being attacked by Mossad agents for criticizing Israeli foreign policy... LOL.
Many people will say the first with no harm befalling them; it is only those who practise hate speech who fall victim of the law, and criticism of foreign policy is NOT hate speech. Why do you find it necessary to lie Ian?
Neo-Nazi's and their ilk seek to whitewash the 3rd Reich's evil so as to attract supporters on the fringe. Are you on the fringe Ian? You definitely don't seem as well informed as you think you are...
... no springtime for Hitler...
... oh, one last thing; if there is all this secret super-powerful organisation stuff going on, how come they don't simply kill Zundel et. al? I mean, there aren't that many neo-nazi's proper - loads of dupes, boot-boys and members of that well known unsecret society, the Ignorami, but the movers and shakers of the putative 4th reich... hundreds, maybe a few thousand world-wide (although all are obviously convinced of their own importance and pivotal part to play in 'the cause' even if they don't know how to use apostrophes) . With their 'tentacles of power' and influence and their massive money piles they could have anyone posting or publishing information about the secret societies killed within hours.
Why, if the Zionists are what you seem to credulously believe them to be, aren't Zundel et.al. simply liquidated before they become a threat?
Either these Zionists are strangely moral, or curiously incompetent... or lots of people are complete gibbons who have been conned.
Again, your rationale behind this will be entertaining even if it isn't enlightening...
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talesin
:: "Theocratic War Stategy" to camouflage the country of your birth. But take courage, you are free of the Watch Tower.
Assumptions are for fools. You are obviously ignorant of my background. I do not avoid the Tower, but I do protect myself from Internet stalking, and people who may reveal my personal identity/location on the world wide web.
The thought of using Theocratic War Strategy TM (ie lying to hide from the hypocrites) repulses me. They know who I am, and how I hate them.
And now that we have dealt with the red herring ...
I got a partial answer to my question. You support the ACLU and their fight for NAMBLA's right to be heard. At this point, I will be happy to 'agree to disagree' with you, as I don't feel we can have a productive sharing of ideas.
Take care,
talesin
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Ianone
Well whatever, I certainly see the double standard, that anyone else can be critisized but Israel and the religion of Judaism can not. You can attack and bash christianity, but dont you dare touch Judaism or its "sacred" Talmud or Kabballah. No, keep your mouth shut and keep paying your taxes!