Why did Israelite soldiers die following Jehovahs direction?

by truthseeker 16 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  truthseeker

  Joining the armed forces presents an inherent risk that one will die in combat.

  There is a historical account in the Bible detailing huge losses for the Israelite army, when they followed Jehovah's direction.

  To set the scene - a group of homosexual men surround the house of an old man, asking him to bring out a lodger for sexual gratification. The old man refuses, and instead gives the mob his daughter and concubine. The men did not listen, but took his concubine, abused her all night long, and she turned up on his doorstep the next day dead.

  Full account is here: Judges 19

  Now as they were making their hearts merry, behold, the men of the city, certain sons of Belial, beset the house round about, and beat at the door, and spake to the master of the house, the old man, saying, Bring forth the man that came into thine house, that we may know him. 23 And the man, the master of the house, went out unto them, and said unto them, Nay, my brethren, nay, I pray you, do not so wickedly; seeing that this man is come into mine house, do not this folly. 24 Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing. 25 But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go. 26 Then came the woman in the dawning of the day, and fell down at the door of the man's house where her lord was, till it was light.

  After that, the old man cut up the concubine into twelve pieces, and sent each one to each tribe of Israel.

  The Israelites were horrified when they heard the whole account, and wanted the men of Gibeah, of the tribe of Benjamin, brought to justice.

  Judges 20:13, the latter parts says, "And the sons of Benjamin did not want to listen to the voice of their brothers, the sons of Israel."

  So the Benjamites started to form an army to war against the other tribes.

  This is where the account really begins...

  18 And the children of Israel arose, and went up to the house of God, and asked counsel of God, and said, Which of us shall go up first to the battle against the children of Benjamin? And the LORD said, Judah shall go up first.

  With this scripture in mind, the Israelites sought God's counsel, and God told them that Judah will be in the lead. Other Bible translations say the same.

  What was the result of following Jehovah's direction?

  20 And the men of Israel went out to battle against Benjamin; and the men of Israel put themselves in array to fight against them at Gibeah. 21 And the children of Benjamin came forth out of Gibeah, and destroyed down to the ground of the Israelites that day twenty and two thousand men.

  22,000 Israelite soldiers were destroyed in this battle, yet they followed Jehovah's direction.

  What happened then?

  22 And the people the men of Israel encouraged themselves, and set their battle again in array in the place where they put themselves in array the first day. 23 (And the children of Israel went up and wept before the LORD until even, and asked counsel of the LORD, saying, Shall I go up again to battle against the children of Benjamin my brother? And the LORD said, Go up against him.)

  So for a second time, the Israelites seek God's approval and counsel. The account continues...

  And the children of Israel came near against the children of Benjamin the second day. 25 And Benjamin went forth against them out of Gibeah the second day, and destroyed down to the ground of the children of Israel again eighteen thousand men; all these drew the sword.

  Again, following Jehovah's counsel results in the loss of 18,000 soldiers.

  A total of 40,000 soldiers died following Jehovah's direction. Why?

  Only after the third time did Jehovah give the Benjamites into the hand of the Israelite army.

  26 Then all the children of Israel, and all the people, went up, and came unto the house of God, and wept, and sat there before the LORD, and fasted that day until even, and offered burnt offerings and peace offerings before the LORD. 27 And the children of Israel enquired of the LORD, (for the ark of the covenant of God was there in those days, 28 And Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron, stood before it in those days,) saying, Shall I yet again go out to battle against the children of Benjamin my brother, or shall I cease? And the LORD said, Go up; for to morrow I will deliver them into thine hand.

  Was the loss of 40,000 lives necessary? Why couldn't Jehovah have given the army victory from the start?

  This account is one of those that have no easy answer.

  Any takers?
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  Peppermint

  My JW father-in-law asked me the very same question the other week. I found a Questions from Readers article about it, but there are no satisfactory answers.
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  Whiskeyjack

  There never seems any logical answers when "God" starts sponsoring organized violence (even though so much is done in the Fellow's name) among his followers to achieve his ends.

  As a kid, I remember feeling resentful that the Israelites could go on slaughtering/looting binges (no rapine?) but I couldn't join the navy as a JW! These types of accounts in the bible are what made me at best, a hopeful agnostic.

  As the all-powerful creator of the universe, it just seemed to be that He could do better. I don't even bother with issues in the bible before Jesus anymore.

  W.
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  JamesThomas

  Hello WhiskeyJack, welcome to the forum.
  
  When you said "I don't even bother with issues in the bible before Jesus anymore", are you saying that you accept Jesus but have forsaken the god he worshipped?
  
  
  j
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  robhic

  Maybe jehovah, prankster that he is, figured he'd have a little fun with the Isrealites. If they were such wussies that they had to go whine to the J-man about who should go first to fight the Benjaminites (why not just all go together and open a major can of whup-ass on them? Did they really need someone to tell them this?) he'd have the malicious, violent, homicidal fun that he was so fond of.

  He'd pick one tribe to get slaughtered (because he knew in his all-knowingness) and amuse his blood-thirsty passion for killing Isrealites. It's like his trademark.

  Then, as an extra bonus, he got a 2nd chance to kill him some Isrealites. They actually came and asked him again who should go try to whip some Benjaminite ass. So, what was he to do? He did what he always did, he'd send some more lemming-like Isrealites to their deaths, that's what he'd do!

  He finally got weary of all the wanton slaughter and destruction so figured he'd give 'em a rest and see just how gullible they were by telling his "chosen people" that "OK, next time I PROMISE I'll let you poor clowns win this time."

  I guess after the slaughter of so many thousands he finally let them win for a change. What a great guy!
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  peacefulpete

  The answer, if it may be called one, is in the source of the legends and the purpose for which the final redactor used them. Judges contains oral legends of battle and failure from a mythic time before there was a Judah or israel. It may be surprising to some but there is no evidence of a united kingdom under David and Solomon much less centuries before them. Theses stories were what is called etiological stories or legends of origin and explantion. They were politically and religiously motivated. All evidence tells us there were no battles between tribes and nations in this region and time of the scale purported in the OT. Take comfort that this means the legends of heros slaying tens of thousands of men, women and children never really happened. Anyway the people that eventually came to be identified by later writers as Israel and judah were indigenous peoples who had legends of heros and battles that were modified and incorporated into the Deuteronomist's tales. The purpose of the Deuteronomist is one of offereing justification for the failures of his present king and priesthood. It is complicated but to speak in generalities he has the agenda of depicting the tribes as wayward and corrupted (idols , homosexuality, greed, murder etc.) to make the past appear justified and darker than the present while yet offering a glimmer of hope of deliverance via God's appointed representatves. The story in Chapt 20 is in a larger context of yahweh being disregarded and as a result he allows them to suffer and lose in war and fail to take canaan. The modern sense of injustice in this story is because we have a different opinion of what a just god ought to do. To early Yahwehists, god send people to their death under a ruse and decption was quite appropriate if He held a grudge.
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  Whiskeyjack

  JT,

  What I meant was, the information holds no interest. I accept that jesus did exist but I question the nature of his "miracles" just like I question Mohammed's (why believe a carpenter over a camel herder?) The lack of Roman documentation to me is damning (they were the world's best administrators and would have certainly checked out those stories). The "Greek" scriptures are therefore a curiousity for me but that's about it.

  I find it too strange that Jesus left all the nitty gritty details of his "new deal" to his disciples. It just seems lazy and irresponsible. I respect his life philosophy (though pacifists never seemed reconciled to the fact that their conitinued existence is reliant on the retraint of others (like the WW2 conentration camp prisoners who weren't rescued by God but by nasty, violent non-christians whom they despise).

  The creator of the Univers could do a lot better (knowing human nature) in providing structure needed once you move beyond a handful of humans in any endeavor. If faith is the "assured expectation of things to come", what is reasonable to create that assurance-evidence such as parlour tricks that are not corroborated by other sources are insufficient (to me). I don't deny that God exists (the height of intellectual arrogance) but neither do I feel that any of the bibles "authors" can tell me what God thinks though either. They were all products of their times and respective societies.

  I wouldn't run a doughnut shop the way He has managed his people (not mocking). I do try to remain open to all evidence and ideas (why I'm on the site) but I am critical.

  W.
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  VM44

  The story sound like something that would be told to Conan the Barbarian as a child! --VM44
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  ezekiel3

  *** w61 2/15 pp. 127-128 Questions from Readers ***

  ? Why did Jehovah allow the Israelites to suffer defeat twice before the tribe of Benjamin before he allowed them to mete out due punishment to this tribe for its crime at Gibeah? (Judges 20)?P. G., Scotland.

  Judges, chapter 19, tells of certain scoundrels of Gibeah ravaging a woman all night so that by morning she was dead. The people of Gibeah then committed the atrocious crime of condoning this sin of the inhabitants of their city. The tribe of Benjamin was also guilty in this respect; it refused to hear the demands of the rest of the tribes that the scoundrels should be put to death. This immoral condition challenged the faithfulness of the rest of the tribes of God?s chosen people.

  The slaughtering of so many of them in the beginning imposed a great test upon the faithful tribes, especially with regard to the rightness of their cause. By letting the faithful tribes suffer such losses, forty thousand men in two days, Jehovah was testing them to see whether they would be persistent in this determined effort to uproot this gross evil in Israel when it brought such great losses to themselves.

  The thousands of faithful ones who died because of the punitive campaign died in a righteous cause. The survivors who gained the victory vindicated themselves before Jehovah God and before all the readers of his Word. This vindication was worth the cost, and the nation of Israel was purged of a very degrading moral evil.
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  Flash

  18 And the children of Israel arose, and went up to the house of God, and asked counsel of God, and said, Which of us shall go up first to the battle against the children of Benjamin? And the LORD said, Judah shall go up first.

  26 Then all the children of Israel, and all the people, went up, and came unto the house of God, and wept, and sat there before the LORD, and fasted that day until even, and offered burnt offerings and peace offerings before the LORD.

  28 ... And the LORD said, Go up; for to morrow I will deliver them into thine hand.

  I believe the matter was handled poorly from the begining. They hadn't asked Jehovah how to handle it or to go up with them or to give them victory. Their questions to Him shown they were being self reliant instead of FULLY relying on Jehovah to instruct them and GIVE them the battle. Joshua made the same error in fighting with Ai...It's a good idea for us to check with our creator first in lifes matters, just to be sure we're on the same page with Him and to give Him the honor and respect do Him as God Almighty So to answer your question 'why' IMO He let them learn a HARD lesson.