Why did Israelite soldiers die following Jehovahs direction?

by truthseeker 16 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Qcmbr

  First off don't be confused by Israelite numbering - always remove most of the zeros before looking at death totals etc.. A common translation error.

  Secondly the fact that it is recorded as Jehovah saying it doesnt make it so - it could easily have been a priest pretending to speak for Jehovah - the evidence in fact seems to strongly suggest that this wasn't God's command.

  Thirdly scripture writers wrote things down that may have seemed true but weren't for example - the Ark cannot possibly been the only people who were saved (loads of boats can last at sea for 40 days) but to Noah it must have seemed that way - so that's what he wrote.
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  hmike

  In reading the full text of this account, a few things stood out to me:

  ? When the 11 tribes of Israelites went to inquire of God about who was to lead the assault against the Benjamites (20:18), there is no mention that they ever asked God what they should do about this situation, or whether or not they should launch an attack. It appears they made up their minds about what they were going to do and simply wanted God to advise them how to proceed.

  ? In the first two of three inquiries they made of God, He did not assure victory. It was only in the third inquiry that He says, ?I will give them into your hands.?

  ? Although prior to the second inquiry, the Israelites wept, prior to the third inquiry, they sat weeping, they fasted, and presented burnt offerings and fellowship offerings. God responds by not only assuring victory, but specifying that it will be the next day. In His response to the second inquiry, he simply told them to go, but did not say when.

  So here?s my take on this story:

  The men of Gibeah who brutalized the woman were not only depraved but definitely committed a grievous crime, and it would have been consistent with the way God wanted things handled in that time and place for them to have been executed. The problem may have been the lynch-mob mentality the other Israelites approached this with. We aren?t told specifically why the Benjamites would not turn over the criminals, but, in any case, the other tribes were intent from the beginning to go to war against fellow Israelites, for what looks like vengeance without first consulting the LORD. So they were determined to take aggressive action against their brothers, assumed God?s approval, and simply brought him in at the end as a strategical consultant. No sadness over what they were going to have to do, no concern about possibly wiping out an entire tribe, just ?let?s get ?em and anybody who gets in the way.? So when they asked God who should lead the attack, he simply gave them the kind of answer they wanted, and he didn?t promise them success.

  After the first defeat, they came crying to God and only then appeared to ask for His direction, even though it appears they intended to continue the campaign. He tells them to attack, but doesn?t say when, and he still doesn?t assure success. After the second defeat, they finally seem to be serious about getting God?s direction, and only then does He assure success.

  The result of all this is over 65,000 killed, almost the entire tribe of Benjamin wiped out, and an oath they had to conjure up a technicality to get out of. A high price to pay in life and property, but the fault lies with the people from both sides of the conflict.
• 

  ballistic

  Yes, It's pretty sick isn't it. And we were brought up as children on this stuff. How come I'm not completely fucked up, that's what I want to know.
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  Ex6:3

  What about this third entreaty made it more acceptable?

  God assisted Israel in winning the war over Benjamin, but He certainly did not approve of all that they did. Can you recall cases where Christians and even churches seem to have a measure of success, but where God would not approve of their practices and ethics?

  The tribe of Benjamin thought they were getting away with their defiant attitude defending the sinful city of Gibeah. But God suddenly changed the course of events.

  During the time of the judges everyone was doing what was right in their own eyes, ?In those days there was no king in Israel. What was right in his own eyes was what each one was accustomed to do.??Judge 21:25. But from God's point of view, there was gross moral sin and depravity. The tribe of Benjamin was desensitised to sin, perhaps thinking of homosexuality as simply sexual preference. This immoral condition challenged the faithfulness of the rest of the tribes of God?s chosen people. Does this sound familiar ?

  Beware of viewing success as a sign of God's blessing. The slaughtering of so many of them in the beginning imposed a great test upon the faithful tribes, especially with regard to the rightness of their cause. By letting the faithful tribes suffer such losses, forty thousand men in two days, Jehovah was testing them to see whether they would be persistent in this determined effort to uproot this gross evil in Israel when it brought such great losses to themselves. (Benjamin?s thought God was on there side)

  Was Israel faultless in this incident? No, because it took such horrendous deeds to finally cause moral outrage in Israel.

  Why did the Lord allow Israel to be defeated twice before the victory? To make Israel realize that they had to get right before the God before they could have victory. They had evidently relied on themselves and their action was not primarily motivated by interest in clearing reproach from Jehovah?s name. High Priest Phinehas was with the sacred Ark that had been brought from Shiloh to Bethel, where the army was encamped. But after the two defeats they fasted and offered burnt offerings and communion offerings, thereby recognizing the need for Jehovah to fight the battle for them. Only then did Jehovah deliver the Benjaminites into their hands. ?Judg. 20:20-29

  The thousands of faithful ones who died because of the disciplinary campaign died in a righteous cause. The survivors who gained the victory vindicated themselves before Jehovah God and before all the readers of his Word. This vindication was worth the cost, and the nation of Israel was purged of a very degrading moral evil.

  ?If My people who are called by my name will humble themselves, and pray and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land." 2 Chronicles 7:14.

  regards

  Te..
• 

  Narkissos

  Ex6:3,

  You should apply for the Writing Dept. of the WTBTS Inc. Or do you already work there?

  Just one question: "thinking of homosexuality as simply sexual preference" is morally wrong, but having tens of thousands people killed in war just to make a point is morally right... right?
• 

  FirstInLine

  When I was a kid being raised JW I had always assumed the Israelites had "Flawless Victories" and only they were being punished did they suffer any casualties.

  The lessons never mentioned that there were Israelite casualties in every battle.
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  hmike

  I think the high casualty count suffered by the Israelites was part of a punishement, if you want to call it that.

  No question that the Benjamites were wrong to tolerate what happened in Gibeah. Ideally, they should have handled the matter themselves according to the law. Whether they resisted because they condoned this action, or because they just didn't like interference by the other tribes, we don't know. In any case, that's why they were ultimately defeated. But, it looks to me like the other tribes weren't much better themselves. They weren't fit to be God's cleansing agent, especially against fellow Israelites. They mistakenly presumed to have God's approval and leadership in the first two attacks. I think God just let them go ahead and do what they were determined to do, but he didn't side with them.

  It looks like they finally learned their lesson, somewhat, before the final battle, but as I read on into Chapter 21, it looks like it didn't last.

  By this time, the Israelites were doing what was right in their own eyes. They appear to have left their God out of everyday life, and just went to him when they felt there was a crisis.