Evolution & Creation... can they co-exist as theories?

by diamondblue1974 22 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    El blanko

    Which I am starting to believe, but that does not mean that God is necessarily lacking in personality due to being 'all things' seen & unseen.

    Ah, 'depersonified' is not lacking in personality, at least not the way I mean it. 8-)

    I just mean it isn't a person. It is more of evolution becoming aware of itself through the development (by purely natural processes) of sophont organisms. Search under 'Teilhard' (French RC priest) who wrote about such ideas. I believe it was Huxley who coined the "evolution becoming aware of itself" phrase but don't have the book at work.

    It is sort of like 'a falling tree in a forest makes no 'sound' until there are entities capable of processing the vibration of air molecules'.

    The very fact we can go 'wow' means there is a sense of wonder whereas before, exactly the same things that produce the sense of wonder were there, but with nothing capable of processing the sensory data and thinking 'wow'.

    The development of intelligence (as we generally define it) has produced a capacity to appreciate the wonder of the universe that did not exist before.

    That sebse of 'divinity', that 'Universal mind', whilst not being a person can have attributes which are given to it by the consensus of the sophont minds it is made up of. Thus general worldwide ideas about murder, stealing, etc. being wrong.

    It you make god a big thing that we are part of you either have to answer all the unanswerable questions you do with a traditonal god we are not part of, or make it so removed from us as to bring the 'why bother' question up again.

    Not that in anyway I claim to be right; this is just fun discussion!

    Science often works upon the basis of hypothesis, which exists initially within the imagination of course.

    Imagination by its very nature is unseen to the outside world, yet has form and in someways is felt by the originator.

    So, invisible realties do exist, have form and can be felt. When you fly through your dreams, I can't see you, I can't feel you, yet you exist in some form.

    |You're welcome to define it so, but the very defintion of realty seems to exclude your definiton by its definiton (from Websters)

    "2 a (1) : a real event, entity, or state of affairs <his dream became a reality>"

    Definiton 1 is 'the quality or state of being real', and real is 'something that is real', and real is "of or relating to fixed, permanent, or immovable things", "not artificial, fraudulent, illusory, or apparent", "occurring in fact <a story of real life>", "having objective independent existence".

    So invisable realities of the mind do not fit conventional definitions of reality.

    What actually defines reality?

    The consensus of subjective realities defines objective reality, if not in definiton this is the case in practise, e.g. Witches don't exist but when everyone belived they did they burnt them anyway.

    What actually defines consciousness?

    The holder of that particular consciousness? I am sure dolphins are conscious in the way you mean, but that consciouness would be different to and seen differently by that which has it to how you see your own conciousness or see theirs. It is only by external observation that we can determine a creature has a "sense of self" like us, which I guess is the best I can come up with.

    If a warm fuzzy feeling exists for a prolonged period of time and motivates a person to great deeds, does this make the original concept that inspired this direction any less real and provable, than say, relativity?

    Of course it doesn't make it as provable as something that can be objectively determined! However love is real despite not being objectively determined by direct means, so I get your drift. But what if the SAME feeling is attributed to different things by different? Are they all real?

    Does belief actually cause something to become real? Yes, subjectively. Objectively, no, not unless you take two + people who are ALREADY in agreement and even then Snta CLaus does not exist. Just 'cause we can THINK something doesn't make it real in the 'ten-tonnes truck' mode of reality.

    We, I believe, squash that living energy out of shape when we attempt to apply human logic to it.

    Don't spoil it by getting ineffable. ;-)

    As for god sitting on SOME people's beds; this is silly as it means god is partial and biased and we are screwed unless it happens to be in our favour.

    It could, if a 'traditional' god, sit on EVERYONE'S beds. If god sat on my bed I'd go see a shrink! If he sat on everyone's beds I'd believe it. How god could prove itself isn;t the big deal it is made out to be IF god is the big del he is made out to be.

    However, ages ago someone came up with the idea that proof invalidates belief, or isn't required, or was given ages ago and isn't needed now, or any one of a number of excuses. Frankly I think ineffablity is a form of disease... I mean, would you invest in a pension scheme without proof the claims made were valid?

    How come we have to believe in something far more important than our pension without proof?

    Yet again, it is the TRADITIONAL view of god that causes these problems. Which is why I vacilate between 'no god' and a non traditional (at least for a European) view of god.

    A god we are part of without personification couldn't prove itself if it wanted to! It still allows the warm and fuzzies without the need of proof or even the discussion of it. And you never have to have a discussion about evolution as OF COURSE we evolved.

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    diamondblue1974 said:

    : what is to stop these two theories both being proven so that they both apply to our origins.

    No scientific theory can ever be proved in an absolute sense. It can only at best be said, paraphrasing Stephen Jay Gould, that a theory has been established to such an extent that it would be perverse not to accept it. That is obviously a subjective comment, but perfectly descriptive of the way objective science applies to everyday thinking.

    That said, I see nothing inherent in science generally or evolution in particular that would prevent acceptance of all the solid evidence for evolution, along with the notion that some kind of super-intelligent creator or creators initiated or directed it -- as long as there is some empirical evidence in favor.

    : What is to stop a creator creating evolution as a process just as a creator would create the laws of physics etc? It would be akin to starting the ball rolling in creation terms and letting it carry on until the highest lifeform is present. Could scientific theory support this view perhaps?

    I think it could, but it would require a bit of a change in the definition of science.

    But there are extremely serious problems with finding empirical evidence to support belief in some sort of creator/s. To date, there is none. There are only religious and philosophical arguments in favor of a creator, such as are offered by young-earth creationists and "intelligent design" creationists.

    There are virtually unassailable arguments against the notion that the God of the Bible is the creator of our universe. These come largely from the Bible itself, which is appropriate, since the notion of this God comes from the Bible itself. But this is a topic for another thread.

    AlanF

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    I've often wondered why the god/gods worshipped by most moderns has to be the creator. Whats wrong with worshippingt gods that evolved as ourselves but to some higher plane? It seems an unnecessary remnant of late Judaic montheism.

    Of course anyone desiring to be true to the discipline of evidence would not reach the conclusion there were gods and fairies flying about. Narkissos, youv'e been exceptionally philosophical lately.

  • trevor
    trevor

    I believe that - evolution is an intelligent process. We talk of the evolution of the motor car but this does not mean it is an accidental process. All of the natural world strives to find balance and work as a whole.Perfect harmony already exists in the natural world. Nature accepts the pain along with the joy because the joy of existence outweighs the pain. It is not possible to have only joy in a physical world. Joy and pain are two sides of the same coin.

    The natural world is already a wonderful and worthy expression of life on earth. It continues to do what it has always done, that is to improve and advance. It adapts and advances basing its progress on the experience it has accumulated. Not only humans do this but all living things, because they are alive and they hold within themselves the intelligence that is contained in the life force.

    The world was not created in an instant nor did it arrive without a process of evolution. In short the process of creation is an intelligent evolutionary process.

  • Carmel
    Carmel

    ....science and religion are different yet
    harmonious approaches to the comprehension of
    reality. These two paths are essentially
    compatible and mutually reinforcing. Scientific
    method is humanity's tool for understanding the
    physical side of the universe. It can describe the
    composition of an atomic nucleus or the molecular
    structure of DNA. It is the key to new
    technologies. Science cannot, however, guide us in
    the use of such knowledge. The revelation of God
    offers to humanity a basis for values and purpose.
    It provides answers to those questions of morals,
    human purpose, and our relationship to God that
    science cannot approach.

    (Baha'i International Community, 1992, Magazine - The Baha'is)

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    Carmel

    The quote makes the assumption there are two approaches with equal value. If one approach is just modern elboration of ancient superstision with nothing underneath all the layers of the story but an idea someone thought of one day, then they might subjectively be of equal value but cannot be held to be objectively of equal value.

    Pete

    If one supposes (imagine several empty glasses of the beverage of your choice in front of you if this helps) that prehaps something describable as 'god' could evolve, prehaps even into a non-coporeal form, then there are no reasons why fairies could not have evolved too. The stories of their intelligence might be streaching it a bit given the maximum size of brain in an airborn anthropoid, but all they are is little flying hairless monkeys. It's easy to come up with a pseudo-science biology of them.

    Come to that, I have somewhere a pseudo-science biology of vampires, dozens of pages long and written at such a high level it would take some one with proper qualifications to point out the dodgy bits.

    There's a program coming up on Anmal Planet where they do the pseudo-science bit to dragons, namely how they could have evolved and their biology (including hydrogen as a digestive gas to provide extra lift (increasing maximum size possible for powered flight) that later used inorganic compunds consumed to use flame offensively.

    Of course, pseudo-scientific evolutionary biology and fact are two different things.

    I have to go walk my wyvern now...

  • El blanko
    El blanko
    It is sort of like 'a falling tree in a forest makes no 'sound' until there are entities capable of processing the vibration of air molecules'.

    Yet I am of the mind that thinks the tree does actually make a sound. Just because I am not there, does not mean to say that there is 'no noise' associated with the event.

    Ahem ...anyway

    The consensus of subjective realities defines objective reality.

    That depends my friend. At birth I was projected into this material universe and soaked it all up with my senses. I grew and learnt to understand my environment as I developed.

    Maybe it has always been that way?

    There is nothing subjective about the environment, it is there as a guide to our senses.

    I suppose you refer to conceptualizing when you mention objectivity, rather than the fundamental nature of our joint experience?

    The development of intelligence (as we generally define it) has produced a capacity to appreciate the wonder of the universe that did not exist before.

    It could be argued that the ancients were wiser and closer to the land and had just as much (if not more) appreciation than do we. Afterall, our learning and intelligence has created a dire situation for the environment we currently exist in.

    There is no evidence that suggests that our ancestors were necessarily moronic.

    Whilst they had their 'so-called' myths & Gods and felt humbled collectively, we in the West (for the main part) place ourselves as Gods and strap a yoke of fear over the rest of creation (or evolution if that word stings).

    At least, that is the way I see it.

    I watched a TV program the other night about the canopy over the rain forest region of South America. It was fascinating to watch. Yet knowing in my head how life interacts at a minute level, does little for my heart.

    Now, I have never been to a rain forest, yet visit my local woods during the summer months each year.

    When I enter the woods, my heart is lifted intuitively by the surroundings. The great poets do not capture the feeling, nor the great artists. The interplay upon my senses is a wonder and goes far beyond my ability to facsimile.

    The less I reason, the more my heart connects.

    ... and that for me is:

    ineffable
  • Pole
    Pole
    Evolution & Creation... can they co-exist as theories?

    Creation cannot be a truly scientific theory as it is inherently mystical. Even if you pretend parts of creation "theories" are based on a scientific methodology, the mystical unverifiable supreme being keeps hanging around. Creationists tend to fall back on it when you pick a hole in their claims.

    Evolution at least has the potential of being a scientific theory which can be largely verified by scientific methods.

    So can the Catholic dogma of transubstantiation co-exist with the physics of solid bodies?

    They're incompatible, although they may apparently happen to touch upon the same subject.

    Pole

  • gaiagirl
    gaiagirl

    I suppose I disagree with the idea of a "creator" because I don't view the universe as a dead, constructed thing (like a house), but as a living organic entity. I view myself not as a "child of God" but as a child of the Universe. The universe has evolved through time, just as the galaxies, our Sun, Earth, and life on Earth have evolved, and there is abundant evidence supporting this position. This doesn't mean that deities don't exist. If they do exist, they also evolved as part of the ongoing processes within this universe, and were not necessarily responsible for our origins or subsequent evolution.

  • El blanko
    El blanko
    If they do exist, they also evolved as part of the ongoing processes within this universe, and were not necessarily responsible for our origins or subsequent evolution.

    I have a problem in my mind. My brain hurts when I try to wrestle with the concept of an eternal evolving organism.

    I prefer to believe that one item amongst this mass has always been a constant. God if you like. Always there, always has been, always will be.

    I also believe in one aspect of the whole being united within itself and not being reliant upon any other fraction, to form unity.

    I also believe that this one aspect is the whole. Go figure!

    Now, how we individually define God is a matter of great debate - obviously

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