Evolution & Creation... can they co-exist as theories?

by diamondblue1974 22 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • diamondblue1974
    diamondblue1974

    I am not a scientist so I do bow to others superior knowledge on this site regarding these subjects (and welcome their input) but what is to stop these two theories both being proven so that they both apply to our origins.

    What is to stop a creator creating evolution as a process just as a creator would create the laws of physics etc? It would be akin to starting the ball rolling in creation terms and letting it carry on until the highest lifeform is present. Could scientific theory support this view perhaps?

    I was talking to an old friend who does have a science doctorate (Bio-Chemistry) and he seemed to agree with this in principle, what do you think?

    G

  • mjl
    mjl

    I agree, I believe evolution is a tool used in the creation process. There is some evidence as to the theory of evolution. They?re all kinds of questions... why do human embryos have tails that shrink back to a tailbone, why do humans have some organs that we no longer use much such as an appendix, why do some snake and whales have hips though they do not have legs? Just things that make you say..hmmmm?.

  • greven
    greven

    Certainly evolution theory doesn't exclude the possibility of a creator at the very start of it all, simply because it is out of it's realm. (evolution theory is about the progress of species, not the start of life. This would be the realm of abiogenesis, the transition from nonliving to living matter)

    However, for 'creation' to be counted among scientific theories it has to be rooted in evidence. Yet, nothing has come up that would even hint at, or require the excistence of an entity or force we could call 'god'. Let alone a personal, consious being...

    Greven

  • Robert K Stock
    Robert K Stock

    For creation to be true, first there must be a creator.

    If something can not be measured and tested with repeatable results it does not exist.

    God cannot be measured or tested with repeatable results so there is no creator.

    That leaves evolution as the only alternative.

    Science and belief cannot co-exist and can never be reconciled. Science is cold hard fact while belief is warm fuzzy feelings with no basis in reality.

  • AlmostAtheist
    AlmostAtheist

    The only trouble I've heard people have with letting creation and evolution co-exist is the Adam/Original Sin/Jesus/Redemption bit. The story goes that if we evolved from something else, there wouldn't have been any reality to the "original sin" story, meaning there would be no reality to the "covering sacrifice" story of Jesus.

    Like so many other things about the Bible and religion, it all depends on how literally you take the Bible and how you interpret it.

    Dave

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    Hiya!

    I am not a scientist so I do bow to others superior knowledge on this site regarding these subjects (and welcome their input) but what is to stop these two theories both being proven so that they both apply to our origins.

    Well, you can't prove the existance of god... or that god doesn't exist. Nor can you prove that the various creative myths in various cultures happened as they are described in the culture's Holy books/traditions -in fact, normally you can only prove that creation stories are very obviously not meant to be taken literally nowadays even if the writers took them literally.

    One can equally say that the 'first cause' (i.e. what made the Big Ban bang) is non-provable by science. Likewise the theories as to the mechanism/s of evolution cannot generally be proved.

    If you allow yourself to accept that god existed before the start of the Universe as we see it round us, then you can argue that god made it the way it is the way it seems it did; big bang, cosmological expansion, condensing of stars, systems, groups, galaxies and clusters, organic life developing from monocellular to us via a process of evolution. There's loads of evidence for the physical process of evolution.

    Of course the 'allow yourself to accept that god existed before the start of the Universe as we see it' bit is good old fashion faith and unprovable.

    Likewise, the latest "something out of 'nothing'" theories of cosmologists as to how the Big Band happened are essentailly, for the most of us, as understandable as the doctrine of the Trinity. Tricks with numbers we can't asses the accuracy of. Of course, when someone creates a small Universe in their laboratory, they will have proved them (and run up the largest electricity bill in the history of mankind). But that hasn't happened yet.

    However, one can say 'why believe bronze age goatherds were so clued up as to how we came to be', and decide that god is NOT a creator, and that the scientists are probably right about most things, but that there is a 'god' anyway.

    Not the Judaeo-Christo-Islamic dude we are encluturated into.

    But EITHER something that started evolving a LONG time before we did and is keeping an eye (or whatever non-corporeal entities use for vison) on us, and an awful lot of people are hyping him and saying he'll do this and that and made this and that when it is just as much part of the physical Universe as you or I and is certainly not omniscient or omnipotent.

    OR one can say god is comprised of everything and we are part of that everything. God becomes depersonalised, but is still there. You can even add ideas like 'the Univesral mind' giving arise to avatars such as Vishnu (blue Indian god-dude), Buhddah (chubby meditating dude) and Jesus (love-your-neighbour carpenter dude).

    All of these are unprovable but at least don't have four thousand years of errant nonsence and primative beliefs clogging them up.

    Personally I go between a depersonified god (if you get beneath the 'lots of silly gods' layer of the Vedic (Hindu) there are some suprisingly sensible ideas) that we are part of, and wondering why people bother.

    I mean, it does have to be said WHY do we have to essentailly guess as to the nature of god? To me that either says god is playing silly games or there isn't one, as the only excuses for god not sitting on the end of our bed each night and leaving his omnipotent omnipresentness in no doubt are silly ones made up by humans, like the 'why no miracles now' excuse.

    God not proving its existence to us when it is extremely reasonable to doubt its existence means either god is playing silly games, or there isn't one. And as the idea of a god playing silly games really is bronze age (Greeks, Romans, etc) is initself silly, I go for the 'no god' or the 'thou art god/I am god/that dog is god' model.

    All the best

  • El blanko
    El blanko
    one can say god is comprised of everything and we are part of that everything

    Which I am starting to believe, but that does not mean that God is necessarily lacking in personality due to being 'all things' seen & unseen.

    Onto other points that just sprang to mind (a pot-pourri of ideas):

    Science often works upon the basis of hypothesis, which exists initially within the imagination of course.

    Imagination by its very nature is unseen to the outside world, yet has form and in someways is felt by the originator.

    So, invisible realties do exist, have form and can be felt. When you fly through your dreams, I can't see you, I can't feel you, yet you exist in some form.

    What actually defines reality? What actually defines consciousness?

    If a warm fuzzy feeling exists for a prolonged period of time and motivates a person to great deeds, does this make the original concept that inspired this direction any less real and provable, than say, relativity?

    Personally, I believe the two ideas of evolution & creation exist quite happily, side by side. That is not to say that I am putting forward the idea that we as humans developed from a soup - as a friend of mine put it, "we are toilets with wings" (physical and spiritual) IMO.

    This age of so-called logic and reason has not necessarily usurped the position of instinct/intuition, although it appears that way upon the surface.

    Whatever we define life to be, in terms of that indistinguishable force that pushes us forwards and onwards and enables our perception of time and matter, then it surely is a marvel and an amazing living energy. That energy to me is God and it has inbuilt laws that guide the universe.

    We, I believe, squash that living energy out of shape when we attempt to apply human logic to it.

    It exists within me and within you, if you like it or not, and it has the ability to adapt and survive in any which way it chooses.

  • El blanko
    El blanko
    God not proving its existence to us

    Sorry, just spotted that.

    This has always intrigued and bothered me as well.

    But... what would it take for you to believe in a living God?

    (no jokes please and try to avoid sarcastic quips if possible)

    A friend of mine has actually reported ' things ' sitting on the end of his bed by the way, yet does not believe in anything aside from the version of reality he gained through university

  • frankiespeakin
    frankiespeakin
    Evolution & Creation... can they co-exist as theories?

    That depends on the particular theories and thier compatability. The Biblical account of creation is very primative and can not co-exist with mordern evolution theory,,unless one reinterpits the Genesis account in a non literal way and forces or superimposses thier interpretation over the actual implied meaning in genesis to make what has been revealed in science.

    Why is it nessesarry to make these things harminize? The biblical account is a 2000+ year old myth and it should be recognized that all cultures have had thier myths about creation that served a purpose back then, for those people(to give some type explaination of the trancsendant).

    We today have a better understanding of our universe,, and so need myths that take into account modern science and especially modern up to date physics and psychology to offer some type explaination of the trancsendant. I suppose mystery of the ultimate cause of everything will always be with us because the human mind is incapable of thought that transcends time and space (that's where the original cause must be both outside and inside space and time). Therefore any explaination in human metaphors which uses things of this dimension cannot possibly accurately discribe the original cause and only be guesses (myths) and should always be recongnize as such and subject to change with new discoveries.

    Dogmatic Biblically based religion offers answers which require "faith". Which means beleif without proof or beleif that ignores evidence to the contrary.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    I'm no scientist either; imho evolution and creation can coexist, but not as theories, i.e. on the same plane.

    If they are really put side by side, they must either be regarded as concurrent (meaning one has to choose => they can't coexist) or complementary (such as in the concordist scenario in which creation starts evolution or works through evolution). The latter option might seem attractive to many believers, but imo results in a biased and deceptive approach of both paleontology and creation texts.

    To me the healthiest approach of creation stories is to read them as they are; that is, as stories belonging to the world of myths, legends and tales. As such they may coexist with scientific paleontology (i.e. on a different level) and be very helpful to one's self-understanding, "philosophy" or "faith" in the broadest sense.

    When the Western world understood that the sun didn't revolve around the earth we didn't throw all previous literature to the dustbin under the pretext that it was produced under different (and scientifically inaccurate) cosmological conceptions. We can still enjoy a lot of those texts and learn something from them.

    The first pages of the Bible already show us this way by juxtaposing two different (and narratively incompatible) stories of creation (Genesis 1:1 through 2:4a vs. 2:4b through chapter 3). The reader is not supposed to choose between them. And those two stories are just a comparatively late sample of the huge variety of ancient cosmogonies.

    In Western Europe today there are many Christian believers who still read the Bible from a religious perspective, yet almost nobody would ask for creation to be taught in science classes. This shows in a very practical way that the scientific theory of evolution and the religious stories of creation can coexist if put in their proper place.

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