Can anyone help with info to refute only 144,000 going to heaven?

by The Leological One 35 Replies latest jw friends

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  The Leological One

  Hi,

  I've recently shown my wife this forum (she's a DF'd JW who does still hold fast to JW views). She's been really depressed and feels down on herself constantly because she wasn't a better witness and seems to feel she has no hope of a personal relationship with God now that she's DF'd.
  
  I was a little upset a moment ago trying to get her out of her depression by pushing my point of view that the WT is full of $hit regarding a great many number of things, the least of which that only 144,000 people are going to heaven/effectively can be saved. I understand where this scripture has been greatly taken out of context already, but can anyone else help with info that helps refute this view?

  Thanks for any help. I just want my wife to be happy and feel she's not lost out on God just because this controlling group of people says she has~!
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  adelmaal

  Has she read Ray Franz's books? "Crises of Conscience" and "In Search of Christian Freedom" are both great books written by someone who was at one time a very faithful and influential Jehovah's Witness. He has written about the inconsistencies, the hypocracy, the politics, the pride, the lack of love, etc. demonstrated from the top down in that religion. I am half way through the first book and it's great. It really shows how accountable the JWs are and how they have mislead their followers time and time again with dire consequences. These books really hit home with JWs because they are written by someone who was at one time a sincere believer. Below are the write-ups about these two books:

  "Crises of Conscience"

  This book was banned, even before it was written.

  The author, Raymond Franz, had been under ban by the Watchtower Society since 1981, when he was excommunicated for eating a meal with a previously banned individual, his landlord. Three million Jehovah's Witnesses are now forbidden to speak to Franz, read his book, or even say "Hello" if they pass him on the street.

  And the Watchtower does well to shield its followers from this man ? if they are to remain followers. Nephew of the organization?s 94-year-old president Fred Franz, Raymond spent nine years as a member of its top-secret Governing Body. The inside information Franz now reveals in his book is sufficient to shake any Jehovah's Witness's faith ? not in God, but in the organization claiming to be God?s mouthpiece.

  Can little Johnnie receive an organ transplant, or must his parents refuse? Can Mrs Smith do as her husband wishes in bed, or must she say "NO" to him? Can Jack accept hospital work as an alternative to military service, or must he refuse and go to jail?

  If little Johnnie's parents, Mrs. Smith, and Jack are Jehovah's Witnesses, their answers come from Watchtower headquarters in Brooklyn, New York. And the final word rests with the Governing Body. As a member of that elite group, Ray Franz had to share in making these decisions for Witnesses worldwide. As the Body's votes swung this way and that ? and millions of Witnesses? family life or very lives swayed in the ballance ? Franz became more and more conscience stricken at what he saw happening.

  One chapter details how the Governing Body decided that certain conduct between husband and wife in bed would be grounds for divorce and disfellowshipping (formal excommunication and shunning). After the edict was issued (The Watchtower 12/1/72, pages 734-736) numerous marriages broke up as a result. Then, seven years later, the Governing Body changed its mind and reversed the policy.

  In the same way, the Governing Body was legislating other personal matters for Jehovah's Witnesses: medical treatment, family relationships, etc. Rank-and-file J.W.s accepted the Governing Body's decisions as "God?s law", but Ray Franz knew that each decision was a mere product of the human whims, opinions and prejudices of his peers as they tossed ideas around and put them to a vote. Franz called to mind Jesus? words to the Pharisees: "Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition...their teachings are but rules made by man." (Matthew 15: 6,9 New International Version)

  Like Quakers, Mennonites, Seventh Day Adventists and others, Jehovah's Witnesses have long refused to bear arms as soldiers. But, unlike these others, the Witnesses have also refused civilian "alternative service" work in hospitals. (Witnesses tell the judge that their decisions are the result of personal conscience, but, in reality any Witness not following the organization?s instructions would be "disassociated" ? cut off from friends and family the same as if disfellowshipped.) This practice came into question in a series of Governing Body meetings in 1978.

  A motion was made at each one of those meetings to allow J.W.s to accept civilian hospital work. In each meeting a majority of the Governing Body (Franz names them) voted in favor of the change. But the resolution never passed because a two-thirds majority was required. So, young men among Jehovah's Witnesses continued to refuse civilian work in hospitals ? and thus faced jail sentences ? even though a majority of the Governing Body felt there was no objection to such work.

  Another "conscience" issue for Witnesses involved political party membership cards. When the ruling element in the African country of Malawi demanded that citizens purchase "party cards", the Watchtower Society took a stand against it. In adhering to this position Malawian Witnesses faced imprisonment, beatings and severe mistreatment at the hands of government loyalists.

  Meanwhile, in Mexico Witnesses were in the habit of bribing officials to obtain cards identifying them as members of the reserves who had fulfilled a year of military service. Not having the cartilla would result in some inconvenience, but not the sort of suffering Witnesses faced in Malawi

  Franz relates in detail how Watchtower headquarters gave its approval to both policies leaving African J.W.s to face brutal persecution while permitting Mexican Witnesses to buy cards 'under the table'. This caused much suffering in Africa. And it helped cause the "crisis of conscience" Raymond Franz experienced as a member of the Governing Body whose votes enforced these contradictory rulings.

  The final portion of Crisis of Conscience is devoted to the events surrounding Ray's removal from the Body and subsequent expulsion from the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses. If it were not for the modern setting and doctrinal issues peculiar to J.W.s the story would sound much like any 'heresy' trial from the medieval Inquisition. Or, again, the evidence based on rumor and hearsay could have been taken from the Salem witch trials of colonial Massachusetts.

  True, the Inquisition's victims were burned at the stake, and the "witches" of Salem were hanged, while Raymond Franz was merely deprived of his livelihood, publicly disgraced, and cut off from family and lifelong friends. Still, one is left with the feeling that the only reason why Franz is an author today, instead of a corpse is that the Watchtower Society can not administer capital punishment. From the standpoint of Jehovah's Witnesses, though, Franz is a dead man

  Crisis of Conscience will be of particular interest to J.W.s?the few who dare read it. But it gives all of us food for thought about our personal relationship with God and our attitude toward men who claim religious authority.

  "In Search of Christian Freedom"

  Freedom is crucial to genuine Christianity. How erosion of Christian freedom began in the early centuries, how it can and does occur today, and the means for resisting the invasion of personal conscience and thought; a sequel to Crisis of Conscience. Discusses teachings of organizational loyalty, door-to-door activity, disfellowshipping, blood, and many others.
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  TheOneBuck

  I do not have the direct information you need but I can tell you deeply love your wife and the story saddens me. This is sigly the biggest reason why I am not an active witness. The whole df thing just drives me nuts. It is so clear that this is not christian love but yet they practice it. DF intent was never to be a form of punishment as it is used today but a method to help the whole. There is a HUGE difference between weakness and being evil. I think if you ever sat down ad read the bible (thankfully I have before becoming a witness) the one thing that you see over and over and over and over again is gods love for us, all of us. I could not sit there with a straight face and df someone because they had a habit of smoking, or comitted fornication because the examples we have from the bible do not support this.

  I think if I was in your position show the great acts of love God has shown man and tell her to keep that relationship with god because she does not need man to allow her too.

  Sorry that you are going through this.
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  willy_think

  I did a quick search and found this:

  If Revelation 7 is to be taken literally, there would only be 144,000 Jewish male virgins taken from a square shaped earth that are now in heaven worshipping a sheep. This would mean that Peter (not a virgin), the Blessed Mother (not a male), and Charles Taze Russell (not a Jew) could not be in heaven. Reading one number literally while taking the rest of a book symbolically is not sound exegesis. Beyond this, we see in Revelation 14 that the 144,000 stand before the 24 elders from Revelation 4:4. This at least brings the grand total to 144,024 people. But, the Scriptures indicate that there are still more to come. Revelation 7:9 speaks of a countless multitude before the throne, which is in heaven (Rev. 14:2-3). Still in the book of Revelation, we read that all those with their name in the book of life are in heaven (Rev. 21:27), while all whose names are not in the book of life are thrown into the pool of fire (Rev. 20:15). There is no third "earthly" class. Jesus reiterates this, and never speaks of two flocks. He has one bride, whose "reward is great in heaven" (Luke 6:23). Paul even exhorts the Christian community, calling them to remember, "As for us, our citizenship exists in the heavens" (Phil. 3:20).
  
  The JWs attempt to use verses such as Psalms 37:29 as evidence that the just are to inherit the land forever, which is earth. In context, this refers to inheriting the promised land as a sign of God?s blessing in the Old Testament. But, Hebrews 11:8-16 indicates that there is a homeland better than the promised land on earth, and this is the heavenly one for those who die in faith. The Old Testament patriarchs "publicly declared that they were strangers and temporary residents in the land . . . they are earnestly seeking a place of their own. . . . But now they are reaching out for a better [place], that is, one belonging to heaven. . . . God . . . has made a city ready for them. . . .These [OT men and women] did not get the [fulfillment of the] promise . . . as God foresaw something better for us" (Heb. 11:13-16,39-40). Even the footnote of the NWT makes clear that the "city" spoken of in these verses is the heavenly Jerusalem mentioned in Hebrews 12:22 and Revelation 21:2. But, the Watchtower still maintains that no one that lived before Christ will ever enter heaven. "The apostle Paul in the eleventh chapter of Hebrews names a long list of faithful men who died before the crucifixion of the Lord. . . . These can never be a part of the heavenly class" (Millions Now Living, p. 89). Only the 144,000 elite that all lived after the death of Christ will supposedly go to heaven. Matthew 8:11-12 provides severe difficulties for this idea, since Jesus proclaims, "many from eastern parts and western parts will come and recline at the table with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of the heavens; whereas the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the darkness outside. There is where [their] weeping and the gnashing of [their] teeth will be." No verse could be clearer in declaring that the patriarchs are in heaven. The following verses all demonstrate that Christians go to heaven, and do not remain on earth: 2 Corinthians 5:1; Hebrews 3:1; Ephesians 2:6; Colossians 1:4-5; 1 Peter 1:4.

  http://www.catholic.com/library/more_stumpers_for_jehovah_wit.asp
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  The Leological One

  Hi Adelmaal,

  I've heard a lot about the book but haven't read it yet but have read a few other books such as Reasoning from the Scriptures with Jehovah's Witnesses (or something like that~). I thought she was starting to get more open to seeing something was wrong with her religion but then got it pushed back in my face today when I tried to comfort her by telling her the views that were depressing her were wrong to begin with and that she would have no reason to look down on herself if those views were wrong to begin with.

  But it always comes back to whether she believes the WT is the actual mouthpiece of God, and I know at this point I can't get her to read a book but might be able to get her to look at a post or 2 or something on the net.

  Thanks for the info above, and I'll likely have that book soon, too~!
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  The Leological One

  TheOneBuck,

  Thanks for the thoughtful post, and I think that's good advice~!
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  TheOneBuck

  by telling her the views that were depressing her were wrong to begin with

  Who likes being told they are wrong.. Make yourself visable when you do research, so she might sit it. Actually do some research together and see what you think about the 144,000. Do not rely on others to tell if it is right or wrong decide for yourself. I think if you both go into it with an open mind you will be amazed at the outcome... not only hers but yours.
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  Narkissos

  Simply reading the NT would do it.

  First, the burden of proof is the JWs' as no single text explicitly says that.

  Second, there is massive evidence that no segment of early Christianity believed in "two hopes". Cf. Ephesians 4:

  There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope of your calling, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all and through all and in all.

  Third, all the texts JWs use to this end are quoted out of context.

  (1) On Luke 12:32 see Peacefulpete's thread http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/86875/1.ashx

  (2) John 10:16 clearly speaks of people from two distinct origins (i.e. Jews and Gentiles) gathered into "one flock" -- not the other way around.

  (3) the 144,000 of Revelation 7; 14 are clearly a symbolical number as the 12 tribes of 12,000 they are made of (7:4ff); see the equally symbolical use of the figures 12 and 144 in chapter 21 (v. 17).

  In sum: there is nothing to back up the JW teaching which was made up by Rutherford to secure control on the increasing number of people related to the WT in the 30's. Making them "second-class believers," dependent on a "first-class" "represented" by the WT was the trick. Simple really.
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  The Leological One

  Wow, willy_think~!

  Thanks for the reply~! I'm still reading it but can hardly believe I've never thought about the previous 24 elders being there along with the witnesses! I'll keep reading. Thanks again~!

  Beyond this, we see in Revelation 14 that the 144,000 stand before the 24 elders from Revelation 4:4. This at least brings the grand total to 144,024 people. But, the Scriptures indicate that there are still more to come.
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  pennycandy

  http://www.xjw.com/where.html

  Where is the Great Crowd Serving God? Very helpful article.