"Babylon the Great", who is she?

by JH 35 Replies latest jw friends

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  jeanniebeanz

  Leolaia,

  Do you ever feel like this stuff gets so over-researched that it just blends together as one large indecipherable Amoebae. One myth overtaking and gobbling up another until you cannot tell where one left off and another began, or where one has plausibility in light of provable history and another does not?

  I think of how many scholars denied the existance of Pilate until stones were unearthed showing his name and position. Does it ever become just a guessing game? How is it possible to ever prove anything related to myth and prophesy given the loss of records over the millenia, and the many civilizations that did not write down anything at all?

  J

  *sips hot mocha, anticipates Leolaia's mind blowing answer*
• 

  Leolaia

  jeanie....Definitely, much of the literary context of NT books has been lost and there's not much we can do about it. Whatever sources the author of Revelation depended on are no longer extant. But I don't think this doesn't mean we shouldn't try to make sense out of it. Some things are much clearer and intelligible than others. I think the internal and external evidence on what ch. 17-18 is about is fairly conclusive, with relatively little room for doubt. On the other hand, ch. 11 is muddled and less clear. Things that might seem completely obscure in Revelation are illuminated when we look at the broader literary context. We don't have enough of the context surviving as we would like, but what does survive helps a lot. Revelation may be the only full-fledged apocalyse in the NT, but it has many cousins in Jewish and Jewish-Christian literature. Looking at them side-by-side highlights common themes and concepts, as well as their differences. For an example, take a look at the following thread that tries to do such a comparison:

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/64923/1.ashx
• 

  jeanniebeanz

  Leolaia,

  Very interesting thread. The Apocalypse has always fascinated me, and the way that you went into some possible reasons for mans doomsday prophesies was intriguing. Your line of reasoning on such prophesies as being written to give mankind a near-future "out" for their troubles makes sense, as does the implication that the mentioned prophesies were written during times of national oppression or collapse.

  I appreciated the way that you backed up your theories that end time prophecies change over time to adapt to the reader of the time. Your reference to the Left Behind series of books as a possible modern effort to place the events described in Revelation in a language that we could relate to in our day made sense.

  Again, a very interesting thread. Thank you for referring me to it as it was posted so long ago, I doubt I'd have ever found it on my own.

  I also appreciate the way that you make sincere efforts to answer questions posed by others rather than dance about the subject or insult the inquirer. Some here do that, although I suspect that it is their way to get around having to come up with compelling reasons for their stated beliefs.

  Now, in the language of my day...

  Like, you *totally* rock dudette!

  J
• 

  proplog2

  I am not a prophet. Actually I AM a prophet - albeit a false one. To qualify as a false prophet you merely have to make a prediction and then the thing you predict doesn?t occur.

  Now what happens if you make a lot of false predictions and then lo and behold you make a right prediction. Do you then become a True prophet or merely a 5% true prophet.

  Since it is a zero sum game everyone that ridicules a prophet is essentially saying they predict the prophecy won?t happen. So if you comment on a "prophecy" you too are a prophet. As of now the nay-sayers have been the "true prophets" 100% of the time.

  What really matters is not how many times you are wrong but if you really get it right at a point that is significant. It?s kind of like playing the lottery. You?re a loser until you win - and then you are a winner.

  With that said here goes... (again)

  This will give you something to think about as you miss the Memorial next Thursday (March 24)

  One of the most important end-time prophecies involves a reference Jesus makes to a prophecy in Daniel. Matt: 24:15 "Therefore when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation AS SPOKEN OF THROUGH DANIEL the prophet, standing in a holy place (let the reader use discernment) then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains." ... For then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world?s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again." Nothing like that has happened yet. There has been no tragedy that has brought us to the brink of extinction followed by some kind of rule from above. One of the reasons this prophecy is important is that it requires immediate action on the part of those who observe and identify its fulfilment.

  The Daniel Connection:

  Daniel 11:31 says the King of the North will "certainly put in place the disgusting thing that is causing desolation" The Watchtower writers mistakenly claim that the disgusting thing was the League of Nations. The mistake is obvious. The King of the North - Russia - was not one of the original members of the League. It is also a stretch to say that because Russia was one of the 50 original members of the United Nations that it therefore was principally responsible for its establishment. What extraordinary function did Russia (USSR) carry out to give it such credit?

  So the disgusting thing is not an international debating club but an instrument for carrying out desolation. Today there is an instrument that can cause incredible destruction. We have all grown up with the "nuclear bomb". Daniel 11:31 is basically saying that the King of the North is going to drop a bomb.

  Don?t laugh. This is serious and the explanation brings us to another reference in Daniel to this extraordinary event. Daniel 12:11 tells us to count the days from a significant event to the dropping of "the bomb". Daniel 12:11 is in answer to Daniel?s question at Daniel 12:8 - "O my lord, what will be the final part of these things?" Daniel 12:11 answers: "And from the time that the constant feature has been removed and there has been a placing of the disgusting thing that is causing desolation, there will be one thousand two hundred and ninety days." So that?s it - all we have to do is identify the event that marks the removal of the constant feature and count 1,290 days.

  This isn?t easy. We have to find something significant that halts something that has been constant.

  The Watchtower has connected this to the preaching work - the sacrifice of praise that is offered to God on a continuous basis. Is that reasonable? No. There always has been such praise and even during intense persecution JW?s boast that they simply go underground and offer up such sacrificial "fruit of the lips". We need to find something that actually ceases.

  Something has ceased. The 2005 yearbook tells us what has ceased that had been continuous. Page 24 paragraph 2 "The move of the printing, binding, and shipping operations to Wallkill has changed the face of Brooklyn Bethel. A historic and emotional moment occurred on April 29, 2004. That evening, amid cheers and tears, Max Larson, printery overseer for more than 60 years, shut down the last printing press in Brooklyn, ENDING 84 YEARS OF CONTINUOUS PRINTING THERE."

  So do you start counting the 1,290 days from April 29 2004? Or do you start counting from the event that no doubt generated the decision to move out of Brooklyn? What event? The destruction of the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001. The yearbook tells us at the top of page 23 "At the annual meeting of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania on October 5 2002 an announcement was made that the Governing Body had approved the consolidation at Wallkill. There can be no doubt that this move was made after they realized that New York was no longer a good base of operations. It served them well when they needed the access to various services, of such an international city and seaport. But, now it could actually hinder their activity.

  So start the countdown of 1,290 days from the most significant day in Modern History - September 11 2001.

  You come to Good Friday 2005. Will something significant happen on that most solemn day of the Sacred Christian Calendar. Seven days is not long to wait. You may want to shrug this whole thing off as a mere coincidence. Time will tell. Think about it the night of the Memorial.

  THE PAST DOES NOT EQUAL THE FUTURE
• 

  trevor

  A tired old harlot who rides on the back of a beast.

  It sounds like the Governing Body of the WT.

  They accuse others of being 'Babylon the Great' in the same way as they accuse others of being false prophets and liars. This is to throw you all of the scent.

  Going by the above comments I think they have succeeded.

  Anything else I can clear up?
• 

  jefferywhat

  Bookmarked.
  
  This is gold!