by JH 13 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
My parents are Catholic, and they had a special meeting for "Confession" last night. This got me thinking about confession in the JW's.
It seems to me that JW's confess their sins to Elders rather than to God....
Try smoking or playing lotto, and then tell the elders that you done that and asked God for forgiveness.
I think that you'll have to ask the elders for forgiveness too...
What is the point of telling God something he already knows?
What is the point of telling God something he already knows? - Crumpet I agree but one can always ask for forgiveness and by the way you're very attractive.
What is the point of telling God something he already knows?
Just my own take on this---but if you have done something that you don't feel very good about and it's making you feel really awful, then going to God and explaining how you feel and that you are sorry for doing it---would make you feel better about it.
It's about you and GOD! If someone feels the NEED to talk to a priest or an elder, then it should be a personal choice. Going to someone and confessing because you feel so bad---and then getting treated like dirt---was not how Jesus did things. A person who is crushed in spirit for ANY reason, should be shown love and mercy, not having judgments and penalties heaped upon them!
It's human nature for anyone who has a conscience to feel rotten for doing something that they know goes against their inner beliefs, and grinding them down and degrading them will not do anything but grind them down and degrade them.
The Catholics have you say a certain number of prayers as peneance, the JWs have much stronger measures that are designed to humiliate people to see if they can take it. If the JW "can't" take it, then they are cast out and shunned.
I wonder what Jesus thinks?
Annie
I remember when my son was young, as he pondered the fish in his aquarium, he said that as a JW, he felt like one of those fish, that everything he did was on display for Jehovah and for the elders. He felt nothing in his life was allowed to be private. I thought that was a good analogy. That is why so many JWs run to the elders to confess. They are not allowed a private life. "Someone" is watching and you better tell before someone tells on you. Or Jehovah brings the big "A" and since he was watching his earthly aquarium, he knows what you did and now you are in one of those WTS pictures.......
Target
he said that as a JW, he felt like one of those fish, that everything he did was on display for Jehovah and for the elders.
Target,
My youngest son is/was very analytical and said much the same thing. He always felt that he was always being manipulated and never did become a JW.
Someone" is watching and you better tell before someone tells on you. Or Jehovah brings the big "A" and since he was watching his earthly aquarium, he knows what you did and now you are in one of those WTS pictures.......
Yup--that's just the way he saw it too. It made him angry and when he put things the way he did--I could see his point. Of course I always reverted it all back to Jah's love for us cuz he knows what's best, blah blah blah.
He HATED the pinky-orange Paradise book, it was what we studied when my kids were little. "Those WTS pictures" carried more impact on them than I realized.
Annie
When I was a Catholic and I went to confession I was in a booth with a screen and I was anonymous to the priest. If what he was told was repeated it had no effect on the parishoners as it was probably only repeated to other priests and generally speaking a priest is a priest for life. With the JWs it could be repeated to any number of people there starting with the elder's wife then other elders and their wives and then ministerial servants, etc. Then to top it all off, if that person ever left the JWs they took your "secrets" with them.
LHG
Greetings!
This was a huge and central topic of discussion and dispute in my own judicial committee meetings and meetings with the appeal committee. Ultimately, my case was "reviewed" by a letter sent to Bethel since the Original JC refused to accept the opinion of the appeal commitee (who didn't want to DF me). I met with the JC and Appeal committees in July 2000. I got the final word from Bethel and was DF'd in January 2001.
In a Nutshell:
I had committed fornication over a year or more prior to it coming to their attention. It was a one-time thing and I felt like I had both asked for and obtained the forgiveness of both the girl and from God/Christ - thus as no man is our intermediary between us and God except Jesus as the Scriptures plainly state, I did not believe that I had to seek "forgiveness" from or "make confession" to the Elders.
The (local) elders position was that as they stated: "It is not possible for you (a Witness) to be fully "healed" on your own, without "going to the Elders."
MY CENTRAL CONTENTION WHICH REALLY, REALLY PISSED THEM OFF (AND MADE ONE TO TWO OF THEM THINK) WAS THAT IF THEY INSISTED ON THAT BEING THE CASE THAT IN EFFECT THEY WERE CREATING A PRIESTLY CLASS AND INTERPOSING THEMSELVES AS MEDIATORS INSTEAD OF JESUS. (They also didn't like that I added that it would be very much like Catholics making confession to their priests.)
The brothers at that time were really under the gun because they had no official directive or statement from the Society that said a regular publisher must confess to them. (There are statements in the Flock book that would seem to apply this principle to Elders/MS/Pioneers). So we just went round and round about the interpretation of James, the scripture that says "Is there anyone sick among you? Let him go to the older men and they shall grease him in oil, praying over him, and he may get well." (Needless, to say they DID NOT LIKE that I pointed out to them that the Flock book says regarding this scripture that the Elder's prayers on behalf of the person are only an "aid" but are not what brings "forgiveness". (Forgiveness can only come from God by way of Jesus as the bible clearly shows.)
They pretty much were in a big quandry because there was much disagreement. Actually, the votes (as one elder from the JC confided to me were this way: Original committee: 2 for DF'ng. 1 (he) was not for DF'ng but in his words "had to be and finallly was convinced by the other two" and presumably from the Appellate committee 3 for not DF'ng. Thus it appears that despite only 2 of the 6 Elders that considered my case voting for me to be DF'd, I was.
The "official grounds" were of course, "lack of repentance from committing fornication."
The unofficial grounds were my assertion that one need not make confession to the Elders in order to obtain forgiveness and be "healed" which undermines their hiearchy.
Now I am not saying that it is more than coincidence but approximately 3 or 4 months later the Kingdom Ministry contained a nice little box that EXPLICITLY SPELLED OUT THE NEW UNDERSTANDING and POLICY that one (even a plain old regular publisher with no special privileges) MUST GO TO THE ELDERS in order to be considered as being "fully repentant". This was followed-up with a Quetions from Readers that asked the loaded question along the lines of "Since Christ died for our sins and is our mediator, why is it necessary for a person who commits a gross sin to go to the Elders?" (weak reasoning followed).
Thus the net result is that, without much fanfare or notice of most Jehovah's Witnesses, despite a hundred years of saying there is no clergy-laity class among Jehovah's Witnesses, AS OF 2001 the Society established a "clergy class" (the Elders) who now are instrinsic to a person obtaining "forgiveness" and one who commits a gross sin is REQUIRED to make confession of it to the Elders or they will not be considered has being repentant and having obtained full forgiveness from God.
-Eduardo
generally speaking a priest is a priest for life. With the JWs it could be repeated to any number of people there starting with the elder's wife then other elders and their wives and then ministerial servants, etc. Then to top it all off, if that person ever left the JWs they took your "secrets" with them.
LHG,
I never thought of it that way---but you are absolutely right! Of course on top of what you said, we have the added fact that that JW elders are not even trained in a "priestly" manner, but are winging it as they try and sort out the JWs lives.
I don't mean to be condescending to any blue-collar hard workers, but carpet cleaners and window washers simply are not equipped to deal with the matters that they are expected to.
Annie
Given Oroborus21’s account and the WTS stand that full repentance from sin must include a confession to the Elders, I wonder how many JWs in good standing are actually deserving of DF..ing? My gut feel is that most JWs have committed secret sins and have kept these transgressions between themselves and Jehovah. I know I have.
