by jaffacake 22 Replies latest jw friends
At the start of my post this verse wouldn't come out right - 4th time of trying...
Romans 9:30-32
?What shall we say then? That gentiles that did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is a righteousness that is by faith; but that
My question...what does Paul describe as the stumbling stone?
To me, Matthew's Gospel and the Epistle of James both oppose the Pauline teaching (justification by faith alone, without the work of the law) from two different angles:
Matthew holds that the Mosaic Law as a whole (including its ritual aspects, 23:23) must be maintained and observed (5:17ff). From his standpoint Paul is a lawbreaker (cf. 5:19; 7:21-23). Jesus has come to teach the perfect (5:48 etc.) interpretation of the Law, the doing of which is the way to salvation (7:13f,24ff).
The epistle of James, on the other hand, has no interest in ritual law, nor in the Mosaic law as such. It openly criticises the Pauline doctrine (the author obviously knows the core of Romans) and the social praxis of the Pauline churches (which rely on wealthy members, whence the criticism of partiality toward the rich), using his own interpretation of the Matthean tradition (summed up in the formulae "perfect law" and "law of liberty" which have no Mosaic or ritualistic overtones).
Where they essentially agree is on their interpretation of non-judgemental mercy or compassion as the basic saving principle:
Do not judge, so that you may not be judged. (Matthew 7:1)
For judgment will be without mercy to anyone who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment. (James 2:13)
One word about Paul: I doubt that Paul promotes "justification by faith alone" as "the how of attaining salvation" (as Jaffacake puts it), as if "believing in faith alone" were a prerequisite to salvation -- this is a common Protestant (mis-)understanding of Paul. Paul's doctrine is rather an a posteriori rationalisation, against the Judeo-Christian stance exemplified by Matthew, that the Gentiles could be saved without observing the Law. Paul's doctrine is actually a justification of his own ministry before the Judeo-Christians -- which they won't accept of course.
The JW doctrine reflects neither Paul's teaching nor Judeo-Christianity. The Protestant doctrine of "salvation by faith" doesn't do justice to Matthew and James in subordinating them to Paul. IMO respecting the texts implies accepting their contradictions.
I don't believe it, yet again half the verse doesn't come out in the message. I'll type it out once more:
Romans 9:30-32
?What shall we say then? That gentiles that did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is a righteousness that is by faith; but that ..... who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone.?
Thanks again Narkissos. I need to think and read some more, perhaps I have concentrated too much on Paul's writing, and too little on others. I'll read your posts at least a copuple more times. The only thing I'm sure of now is that the NWT is strongly biased towards one side.
jaffacake,
I have personally found that a simple study bible, available at any local Christian book store, to be the best source of infomation in understanding the bible and in answering common heresies.
Narkissos,
I agree with you on some counts. I also think some protestant denominations totally forget about good works. Still, as in the verse I quoted from the book of James, I believe the works aspect of salvation is nothing like the Law or what the WT promotes, i.e. going door to door. When reading Jesus' words, He explained separating the sheeps from the goats based on what they "did unto the least of these," and in reading the OT, there are places demonstrating those are the things the Father cares about -- the matters of the heart far over obeying the Law/works[edit: sacrifice]. Jesus spoke of the forgiveness the repentant sinner would have rather than the one who felt righteous because he had kept the law.
I'm not saying this demonstrates the sinner was not supposed to then keep the law/do good works, but there is plenty in the NT that seems to support salvation based on faith in Jesus rather than by works, and I feel Paul was speaking of salvation in general when he said:
Romans 10:9 -- "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
I do believe works are supposed to accompany salvation, but my understanding is that the work is simply the act of faith (such as Abraham was credited as doing when offering Isaac and Rahab was doing when hiding the spies, etc.) via confessing (the good work) that Jesus is our Lord and Saviour (the part of faith being acted on). This is obviously definitely different than salvation by living the law perfectly, but I do agree good trees are supposed to produce good fruit and that good works should follow the life of a Christian, i.e. helping those in need, showing mercy and compassion on those who may not deserve it, forgiving one's brother (as per your previous example), ec... It may be that I'm agreeing with you in some major ways but still feel there's more of a shift in balance towards having faith in Jesus vs. doing things by the Law and going by one's own righteousness.
Peter and James make a good point in Acts 15:7-12 - "And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men [and] brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as [he did] unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them."
13-20 - "And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men [and] brethren, hearken unto me: Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood."
24-29 - "Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, [Ye must] be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no [such] commandment: It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell [you] the same things by mouth. For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well."
And
1 John 1:5 - "This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."
Mark 16:16 - "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
John 10:9 - "I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture."
John 1:12- - "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, [but] grace and truth came by Jesus Christ."
And this verse may mean different things to different people, but I believe it shows that we're not supposed to be trapped into some type of labor-type of works system, though again I do believe that there is some physical manifestation/acting out in faith that is actually the good work necessary for salvation, and then I believe Christians are new creations that work out the salvation of their souls (minds) with trembling and fear to live a Christian lifestyle, producing good fruit/works via doing what Jesus said to do: doing unto the least of these as doing them unto Him and loving God with all our being, doing what we know He wants us to do (some things being different for some people than others, i.e. maybe choosing a profession one feels "called to" such as being a pastor, missionary, etc..).
Matthew 11:27-30 - "All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [him]. Come unto me, all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke [is] easy, and my burden is light."
I think this is a good topic and appreciate the posts I've seen so far~!
I am most grateful for the excellent views expressed. I know someone who is a non-practising Roman Catholic. She is what some may describe as clean living, and always seems to give up her time to help others, putting herself last. She visits the sick and offers support to many, even when they continually make mistakes and bring misfortune on themselves. She believes in God and his son from a catholic perspective - all she's known, but rarely attends church. What I'm trying to say is that I recognise in her many of the attributes linked to what the Bible says about salvation, although she doesn't know it because she knows little of scriptures. What I'm trying to say is that people like me are studying and talking about what makes a true Christian, whilst others, some not linked with a religion or organisation, just seem to get on with living a Christian life. I'm just thinking aloud really.
I understand salvation this way.
When we beleive we are saved and with that simple act we have salvation and can be no more condemed than the father can condemn christ. Justification is 100% is allways ours because only perfection can save us. Sometimes is reffered to as salvation from the guilt of sin.
Santification is the process whereby we become more like christ it may only be a fraction of 1% and is the work of the holy spirit in our lives to be more christlike and is salvation from the power of sin.
Glorification is the salvation from the presents of sin when Jesus comes and we are perfect and only then will our justification = our santification.
The issue at the time of the reformation was is a christian when justified is made righteous or declared righteous. The reformers beleived justification is to declare righteous because our righteousness is not of our own making it is in heaven and is the righteousness of christ.
When we beleive we are saved and with that simple act we have salvation and can be no more condemed than the father can condemn christ. Justification is 100% is allways ours because only perfection can save us.
So I guess my next question is what do we mean by "believing"?
Where does it say that not all who say Lord, Lord will be saved (or something like that).
Hi Jaffacake,
So I guess my next question is what do we mean by "believing"?Where does it say that not all who say Lord, Lord will be saved (or something like that).
I'm about to have to get off the computer at work in a few and don't have a Bible or time to look up scriptures at www.blueletterbible.org right now, but just going off my thoughts on the last verse you're referring to, I think the verse is more stating that not everyone who "calls" on the name of the Lord, possibly claiming to be Christians/saved will be saved. I really recommend going to the website I linked and typing in lord and saved in the concordance search to get the verse and then reading that verse in context with the others before and after it (maybe even the chapter before/after it) to see if it helps give more clear meaning to it. I feel the difference is that those that are saved legitimately "believe" in their hearts that Jesus is the son of God and came to die for our sins, taking on our sins as our perfect sacrifice... this vs. people just thinking it sounds like a good idea and not fully accepting/believing it.
I have mixed feelings about "once saved, always saved" in that there are scriptures that refer to people turning back towards the world. Of course, it could be said that maybe they never were truly saved to start with, but I don't know. I feel that when one is saved, that person will strive to live a different life (though agree that only the perfection of the life Jesus lived and His sacrifice is the only way to be saved), getting forgiveness of sins if we confess our sins and actually have a repentant heart. I believe there are times in probably almost every believer's life where they may not feel saved or that they're truly repentant for something, but then time goes on, and I feel most Christians strive to get back to where they feel they are supposed to be spiritually. I feel some don't, though, and fall headlong back into worldly living, and even if I can't say there's no such thing as once saved, always saved, I feel that's a dangerous place to be (and have been there seemingly a few times myself, unfortunately, though always regretting and striving to get back to where I feel I belong).
