a great crowd and rev 21

IP_SEC

I?ve been researching the references to a great crowd at Revelation 7 and 19. It seems to me that there is little doubt that the vision places them in heaven. Naos, enopion, and the reference to heaven in chapter 19 seem pretty conclusive as to their heavenly position to me. My problem is that, when I read Revelation 21:1-4 it seems to me that this is speaking about the same group as the 'a great crowd' at chapter 7 and 19. At 7:15 it says God will spread his tent over this group. 21:3 says the tent of God is with mankind.

The point that witnesses make about this is that since it mentions Gods tent being with ?mankind? this would exclude them from heaven since mankind do not live in heaven. It says that they will be his people, people don?t live in heaven. The final argument; that since tears, death, and sorry have never been in heaven, this can?t be speaking of a heavenly group. That last argument is easy to refute because, they did have tears and sorrow and death while on earth so God will remove that when they get to heaven.

My problem is that the tent being with mankind and them being his people indicates something earthly. Anyone have an idea on how to reconcile the obvious heavenly hope of chapter 7 and 19 with the indication of an earthly hope at chapter 21?

Thanks

purplesofa

maybe its the wording.......tent of mankind........might be worth looking at other wordings.......

in the New International Version it says:

"Now, the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and god himself will be with them and be their God."

ok maybe not........

but I doubt any other bible uses the expression tent of mankind.

(hated to see your thread with no comment IP_SEC)

the_classicist

Naos, enopion, and the reference to heaven in chapter 19 seem pretty conclusive as to their heavenly position to me.

In the Greek religion, I believe that the naos was the inner part of the temple where the statue was and where only the priests entered.

Perhaps when God does come to renew the heavens and earth, the distinction between heaven and earth won't exist.

IP_SEC

the literal word for word in the interlinear is: Look! the tent of the God is with the men and he will tent with them, and they peoples of him will be, and he the God with them will be.

"Now, the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and god himself will be with them and be their God."

Hmm I guess the tent of God is heaven right? His heavenly court? Perhapts the term 'peoples' and 'mankind' are used to reference a group who were one people, humans? Its not a really big deal, just semantics as far as Im concerned. I was just thinking of how I'd refute what witnesses say about those verses.

Perhaps when God does come to renew the heavens and earth, the distinction between heaven and earth won't exist.

Thats a good point too class

(hated to see your thread with no comment IP_SEC)

That doesnt bother me purple, I realize what may be of interest or of concern to me probably isnt to others. If I dont get replies, its no biggie. There's a lot of posting going on, its hard to keep up with threads no biggie

peacefulpete

ip sec...First we must come to terms with the book of Rev. largely having been a prechristian Jewis apocalypse that was reshaped into a Christian work. Details have been touched on in a number of threads lately. Then remember that the Jewish views on resurrection and immortaity (or mixes of both) varied from camp to camp. For comparison the Psalms of Solomon (1rst c.BC)includes the very same sentiment of God having his tent be with humans yet also says that the faithful will live forever in the light of God. Just exactly what the author meant is not certain but it seesm that some blending of resurrection/immortality traditions is intended. The author of Rev. (John the Presbyter??) also was blending and reutilizing imagery and idiom, so to expect to be certain what he meant may be unrealistic. Also remember that Rev. does included the popular notion of a recreated earth and heaven being populated in the ancient cyclical history tradition. The WT overly simplistic model of Heaven and Earth is misleading.

AlmostAtheist

Hey IP,

I think one of the hardest things to let go of after leaving the Watchtower is the idea of "truth". We were so sold on the idea that there was a right way to interpret the Bible, it's just the way we think now. But it ain't necessarily so. I doubt you'll ever be able to satisfactorily nail down the great crowd, or the 144,000, or any of the other Biblical groups. You can basically make up whatever you want and there will be some way of reading the Bible that supports it.

I'm not encouraging you to abandon your faith in the Bible, only to abandon the idea that you can "prove" anything specific from it. There's just too much ambiguity. Or maybe there's just enough ambiguity. At any rate, truth is not to be found there, I think. Opinion, interpretation, yes. But not truth.

Just my opinion of course.

Dave

bebu

"Now, the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God."

This is pretty much a description of heaven, isn't it? Is heaven really a physical (?) 'place', or the experience of the full presence of God? Isn't the ending given a kind of marriage of Christ with his Church, and also heaven and earth?

If the first of the 2 laws is, to love God with all your heart/soul/mind... then why are JWs looking forward to a paradise apart from God?? Getting married doesn't mean separation, but consummation. Apparently, JWs are to love paradise so much that they feel it will be okay without the presence of God or his Christ (as they view him).

Anyway, in my view, we could easily live on earth but also in heaven as well (heavenly Jerusalem descends to earth in Rev., remember). Poetic metaphors, not so much physical facts.

bebu

Narkissos

I tend to agree with both PeacefulPete and Bebu on this one: the duality heaven/earth in the JW doctrine or even in the classical, amillenialist theolology of the Great Church from Augustine onward has very little to do with the meanings (or rather, narrative-descriptive roles) of "heaven" and "earth" in Revelation. Heaven and earth, as almost everything else in Revelation, are used as symbols (although not in allegorical fashion, i.e. "heaven" means this and "earth" means that).

The verb skènoô which occurs in 7:15; 21:3 (also 12:12; 13:6 about "those dwelling in heaven") is related and combined to skènè, "tent" (13:6; 15:15; 21:3; yes that makes 7 times...): the reference to the tabernacle / tent of meeting is obvious. One interesting detail is that those Greek words sound like the Hebrew shkn, which is used for Yhwh "dwelling" among Israel (e.g. Exodus 25:8), and from which the name of the tabernacle, mishkan, lit. "dwelling place", is derived. From the same root comes the later Aramaic shekina as the concept of God's presence with his people.

The other NT place where skènoô occurs is John 1:14: "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, the glory as of a father's only son, full of grace and truth."

So I guess the main theological point of Revelation is the prospect of "God's presence with mankind" as the "last word"; of course this doesn't rule out a futuristic scenario, including a few trips to heaven and back (e.g. the New Jerusalem), but on this issue Revelation is as confuse as it is clear on the former.

Pwned

do they still offer the revelation book or do they pretend it doesnt exist? a little off topic, sorry

IP_SEC

Poetic metaphors, not so much physical facts.

I think this makes the most sense to me, though I dont think I could ever convence a witness of it.

I'm not encouraging you to abandon your faith in the Bible, only to abandon the idea that you can "prove" anything specific from it.

Actually Dave, right now I am struggling with the Judeo/Christian point of view. Even as to whether or not I should even believe the bible. I am writing my DA letter (a huge research paper :P) which includes this subject so I kind of wanted to get some other points of view on it. But I think you're right, even if you believe in the bible there is no way to fully know "the Truth" My beef is with the GB thinking they are the only ones who can interpret the bible and wanting to try and ruin my life because I disagree.

do they still offer the revelation book or do they pretend it doesnt exist? a little off topic, sorry

Yep they still use this pile of crap, would not doubt it if we study it again.

a great crowd and rev 21

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