Modalism vs. Trinitarianism (which one stands better against JW doctrine?)

by Ianone 26 Replies latest watchtower bible

Ianone

Modalistic Monarchianism, also known as Modalism, is the view that God variously manifested Himself as the Father (primarily in the Old Testament), other times as the Son (primarily from Jesus? conception to His ascension), and other times as the Holy Spirit (primarily after Jesus? ascension into Heaven). God is not three Persons. Rather, Modalistic Monarchianism / Modalism teaches the God has simply revealed Himself in three different modes. Modalistic Monarchianism / Modalism is also known as Sabellianism, named after Sabellius, and influential early proponent of the view. Yet another aspect of Modalistic Monarchianism / Modalism / Sabellianism is Patripassianism, which is the view that it was God the Father who became incarnate, suffered, died, and was resurrected. Patripassianism essentially teaches that God the Father became His own Son.
I am sure you all know what trinitarianism is. hahaha, here it is just in case since your absence from the BORG, you have forgotten
Christology:
Modalism - (Modalistic Monarchianism) The belief that God is one, this one God has revealed Himself to mankind through various manifestations or modes, the manifestation (role) of the Father, the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. God has the ability to reveal Himself in different forms to His creation and at different times. I do not see how this can be interpreted as Polytheism, this Christology fits accordingly with the basic rules that interpret monotheism (belief in one God).
Oneness - Basic monarchianist modalism .
Trinitarianism - (Athanasianism) - probably the most popular but certainly not truthful, it believes that God is three seperate persons, God the Son, God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit. I can't help but believeing this to be pure pagan polytheism (belief in multiple gods).
Arianism of Arius - (Jehovah's Witness and Unitarian) The Christological views of Arius (280?-336), a priest at
Subordinationism - Belief that one person in the Godhead is subordinate to or was created by another person in the Godhead. Of course this presupposes a belief in the plurality of persons in the Godhead (polytheism). In early Trinitarians, it surfaced as the belief that the Logos is the divine Son and is subordinate to the Father. This was the view of some Greek apologists, Tertullian, and Origen. Arianism is an extreme development of this doctrine (Jehovah's Witness and Unitarian). Also, the term applies to any belief that the Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Father or the Son. Orthodox Trinitarians is expressed by the Nicene and Athanasian creeds theoretically rejects and form of subordinationism, but the tendency towards it remains. (Most of today's Trinitarians view Christ as subordinate to the Father, thus neo-Trinitarians contains the subordination doctrine.
Obviously, you can believe Jesus is God, without being a Trinitarian, so the whole argument that anti-Jesusists use is, oh your're one of those pagan Trinitarians. WRONG! Trnitarianism is pagan, but I'm not one of them, and Jesus is still God.
Now, I agree with the Watchtower teaching that trinitarianism is pagan Polytheism but it is clear that you can believe Jesus is God Almighty without being a trinitarian.
Further, I would like to add:
John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Notice that it doesn't say the greatest act of love is for a man to send his son to die for his friends?
The bible tells us that the greatest act of love is for a man himself, to die for his friends, so why would it be any different for God?
The greatest act of love for God would be for God to die for His beloved creation.
Ianone

If God the Son could be omnipresent as Spirit, and limited in the incarnation simultaneously, without being two persons, why can't the Father become a man, and yet still exist beyond the incarnation, and not be two persons? This isn't a hard concept to grapple with. You pointed out that the O difficulty arises in explaining why, if the God in Jesus is the Father, does Jesus pray to the Father. If Jesus is the Father, why pray to the Father? I believe the answer has to do with the kenosis (Philippians 2:6-11), when God willingly set aside the exercise of the divine prerogatives to take up a human existence, operating within the confines of an ordinary man. The deity of the Father was in Jesus, but latent in Him. In the incarnation, Jesus is distinct from the Father, not in His deity, but in His humanity. In the incarnation, Jesus must be spoken of as being distinct from the Father, because the Father is God beyond a human existence, while Jesus is God in a human existence.
Satanus

I agree with the Watchtower teaching that trinitarianism is pagan Polytheism

That's because you don't understand the definition of the trinity. It's three persons in one god, or one god made up of three persons. Now a test question, how many gods is that?
S
Ianone

Let me simplify it:
Father (God in His unlimited form/manifestation) Son (God in His limited form/manifestation)
Probably the best question that will stump a trinitarian is "who was Jesus praying to if He is God?"
The Modalists are in a better position to answer this seeing as they are truly monotheists.
If the Son is God in a limited role, and if God became a genuine human being, he would need to have all the needs that any average human being has, INCLUDING the neccesity for prayer.
If God becomes a man and does not need to pray, than He is almost cheating His own humanity.
One could argue that God's humanity (as His human (SON) manifestation) was praying to the Father (His unlimited manifestation)
Try to wrap your mind around this as technical as this sounds.
I think the greater question is: by God as a man, praying to the Father, was it merely a charade of some sorts or is there something deeper we can not yet understand?
stillajwexelder

you can believe Jesus is God Almighty without being a trinitarian.
One can believe anything - it is a free country
Gordy

Probably the best question that will stump a trinitarian is "who was Jesus praying to if He is God?"

No it doesn't
Satanus

Try to wrap your mind around this as technical as this sounds.

Yes, i can see that you're struggling here. Do you think that god could have himself in two parts, one part on earth, the other wherever? Nah, forget it. Too hard for you. Another test quetion:
ianone the fetus+
ianone the baby+
ianone the child+
ianone the adolescent=
how many ianones in total?
S
Robert K Stock

I wonder if the old rock group, the Holy Modal Rounders were modalists?
Their biggest hit was "Do You Like Boobs A Lot?"

Ianone

Well , I maintain what scripture says;

Joh 8:18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one (One in singularity, not one in unity)

2Ki 19:22 Whom hast thou reproached and blasphemed? and against whom hast thou exalted thy voice, and lifted up thine eyes on high? even against the Holy One of Israel.

Ps 71:22 I will also praise thee with the psaltery, even thy truth, O my God: unto thee will I sing with the harp, O thou Holy One of Israel.

Ps 78:41 Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel.

Ps 89:18 For the LORD is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king.

Isa 28:2 Behold, the Lord hath a mighty and strong one , which as a tempest of hail and a destroying storm, as a flood of mighty waters overflowing, shall cast down to the earth with the hand.

Isa 1:24 Therefore saith the Lord, the LORD of hosts, the mighty One of Israel, Ah, I will ease me of mine adversaries, and avenge me of mine enemies:

Isa 30:29 Ye shall have a song, as in the night when a holy solemnity is kept; and gladness of heart, as when one goeth with a pipe to come into the mountain of the LORD, to the mighty One of Israel.

I AM THE MIGHTY ONE

Ge 49:24 But his bow abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob; (from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel:)

Ps 132:2 How he sware unto the LORD, and vowed unto the mighty God of Jacob;

A GREAT ONE

Isa 19:20 And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt: for they shall cry unto the LORD because of the oppressors, and he shall send them a saviour, and a great one , and he shall deliver them .

I AM THE GREAT GOD

Ps 95:3 For the LORD is a great God , and a great King above all gods.

I AM THE MOST HIGH

2Sa 22:14 The LORD thundered from heaven, and the most High uttered his voice.

THERE IS NONE BESIDE ME

Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God

Isa 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me ; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

I AM ALONE

Job 9:8 Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.

Ps 136:4 To him who alone doeth great wonders: for his mercy endureth for ever.

Lu 5:21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?

BY MYSELF

Ge 22:16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:

Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself , the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Jer 22:5 But if ye will not hear these words , I swear by myself, saith the LORD , that this house shall become a desolation.

Jer 49:13 For I have sworn by myself, saith the LORD , that Bozrah shall become a desolation, a reproach, a waste, and a curse; and all the cities thereof shall be perpetual wastes Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone ; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself

THERE IS NONE ELSE

Isa 45:5 I am the LORD , and there is none else, there is no God beside me : I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

ONE GOD

Mr 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God ; and there is none other but he:

1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God , the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God , and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God ; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Ga 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one . Mal 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?

ONE MASTER

Mt 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

Ex.21:5-6 And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free: Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever .

Isa 1:3 The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master?s crib: but Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider.

Mal 1:6 A son honoureth his father, and a servant his master: if then I be a father, where is mine honour? and if I be a master, where is my fear? saith the LORD of hosts unto you, O priests, that despise my name . And ye say, Wherein have we despised thy name?

Mt 10:25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?

Eph 6:9 And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him. Joh 13:13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am .

Satanus

I guess i overestimated your intelligence. Oh well.
S

Modalism vs. Trinitarianism (which one stands better against JW doctrine?)

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