What evolution is NOT, Installment 1: "How coud it all happen by chance?"

by seattleniceguy 46 Replies latest jw friends

  • Pole
    Pole

    Narkissos,

    And what I metaphorically called "will" may just be the indescribable "inner side" of what must be described as "random" from the outside.

    Actually AlmostAtheist made a good point here:

    The random aspect of it is that there was no intent on the part of the sun to send it for the purpose of causing the mutation. It was just in the right place at the right time. In that sense, it's random.

    True randomness only exists in mathematics. Full randomness means maximum entropy where nothing is predictable. Usually the probability theory when applied to the real world relies heavily on the concept of "conditional probability", which is the probability of the event X happening knowing that the event Y has happened. Randomness is thus only one of the factors involved. But you're right - there are some philosophical problems with it which I think ultimately boil down to having to choose between mechanistic determinism or some mystical force of randomness.

    Maybe our language is to blame again? In every (meta)physics I know we use at least two fundamental constructs: metaphors (we've already discussed them) and modality (necessity, obligation, probability). I'd say they can be equally confusing.

    Back to the topic...

    I understand the mechanistic evolutionary theory of small genetic steps leading to big changes. What I don't get yet is when I see a relatively simple organism which uses stunnigly elaborate survival techniques which must have required thousands of small precise changes. Of course the concept of divine creational intervention obscures more than it explains in such cases. But it seems like something very important is missing from the mechanistic approaches. An external controlling factor? Yeah, I'm talking metaphysics again...

    Pole

  • Mac
    Mac

    Pole...

    so yer not buying the poop thing...right?

    mac

  • Pole
    Pole

    Mac,

    The poop theory as expounded by yourself seems to make perfect phonological sense. :-)

    Pole

  • Mac
    Mac

    What can I say........

    I'm hooked on phonics!

    mac , got the the whole program for half price during a late night infomercial class ;)

  • Golf
    Golf

    SNG. I ask your age because I want to know how much experience you have in life. When I ask questions, I learn. Let me explain. I'm an inventor with 3 patents, U.S. & Canada. I have other inventions that I didn't bother to patent. In addition, I've invented a number of things as a steelworker that had to do with safety on the job site. Two of my personal inventions has to do with safety. The other has to do with hitting a straighter golf shot. I minimize your errant golf shot.

    I designed and built my own home and additional buildings in my back yard. The blueprints of these additional buildings were in my head. It's a huge building.

    I'm also a professional tree remover, trim, plant and transplant them. With these projects I still found time to play amateur golf for over thirty years and professional golf for fourteen years. I'm also a professional golf teacher, I professionally assemble and fix golf clubs. I have two copyright golf books which, (amazon.com sells)I also have a trademark for a critter I designed.

    These accomplishments took time. What's my point? When I have something on my mind, I don't tell anyone about them, 'I do it!' If I believed in what you believe I would make it appoint to try and prove my point, but first, I would prove it to myself.

    Your comment to Bas was interesting, "I thought of the checkerboard floor illustration as I was going to bed last night."

    Anytime, if, buts or perhaps enter into an equation, my mind goes to work.

    Do you get my drift?

    Golf

  • Euphemism
    Euphemism

    Golf... you sound like an all-around talented and succesful guy, which is really cool, but I for one am completely mystified at what any of that has to do with this thread. Maybe SNG understands better than I do.

    Narkissos... I'm inclined to sympathize with your view, even though I'm a materialist. Materialism is not very emotionally appealing.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Euph,

    I guess I must admit to a certain romantic inclination...

    Still I'm not opposed to materialism per se. The point I was trying to make (and which may well be irrelevant here) is that once a biological construct appears (be it a single cell or a complex organism, or even a species) it has some autonomy -- the relative autonomy of a structure comprising "lower" structures and functioning within a "higher" or wider structure, all structures interacting with and modifying each other. But I confess I have no clue whether this really brings anything helpful to the present debate.

    From the standpoint of the history of ideas, I can't help thinking that the 19th-century scientist approach which governed the global frame of the evolutionist theory was still dependent on a general unifying vision which was inherited from monotheism (the "universal observer" of science had just taken the place of the "God" of metaphysics). Perhaps now we are ready for a more diversified, non-transcendental approach. Time will tell.

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