Daniel's Prophecy, 605 BCE or 624 BCE?

by Little Bo Peep 763 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro
    Scholars do not agree as to the precise year that marked the end of the Assyrian World Power and even at best by your recent post well indicates that all that happened in 609 was a mopping up operation after the Fall of Haran in 610 BCE

    According to the Society (Insight volume 1 page 205, entry Assyria, subheading The fall of the Empire:

    The fall of the empire. The Babylonian Chronicle B.M. (British Museum) 21901 recounts the fall of Nineveh, the capital of Assyria, following a siege carried out by the combined forces of Nabopolassar, the king of Babylon, and of Cyaxares the Mede during the 14th year of Nabopolassar (632 B.C.E.): "The city [they turned] into ruin-hills and hea[ps (of debris)]." (Ancient Near Eastern Texts, edited by J. B. Pritchard, 1974, p. 305; brackets and parentheses theirs.) Thus the fierce Assyrian Empire came to an ignominious end.—Isa 10:12, 24-26; 23:13; 30:30-33; 31:8, 9; Na 3:1-19; Zep 2:13.
    According to the same chronicle, in the 14th year of Nabopolassar (632 B.C.E.), Ashur-uballit II attempted to continue Assyrian rule from Haran as his capital city. This chronicle states, under the 17th year of Nabopolassar (629 B.C.E.): "In the month Du´uzu, Ashur-uballit, king of Assyria, (and) a large [army of] E[gy]pt [who had come to his aid] crossed the river (Euphrates) and [marched on] to conquer Harran." (Ancient Near Eastern Texts, p. 305; brackets and parentheses theirs.) Actually, Ashur-uballit was trying to reconquer it after having been driven out. This record is in harmony with the account relative to the activity of Pharaoh Nechoh recorded at 2 Kings 23:29, which activity resulted in the death of King Josiah of Judah (c. 629 B.C.E.). This text states that "Pharaoh Nechoh the king of Egypt came up to the king of Assyria by the river Euphrates"—evidently to help him. "The king of Assyria" to whom Nechoh came may well have been Ashur-uballit II. Their campaign against Haran did not succeed. The Assyrian Empire had ended.

    Although the years given in this passage follow the Society's erroneous 607 model, and are therefore out by 20 years, it indicates that the Society agrees with the relative sequence of events for the fall of the Assyrian empire, which culminated at the fall of Harran according to the Society in harmony with secular historians. When the 20-year gap is accounted for, this places the end of the Assyrian empire in 609BC.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    Indeed you will not obtain 607 by taking off 70 years from 539 but will simply arrive at the useless date of 609 which is a utterly meaningless date for both historical and chronological purposes.

    But mommy says that 70 years of Babylonian domination end in 539 B.C.E. when the Babylonian Empire falls, shortening the time Tyre would be subject to Babylon (Isaiah, Vol. 1, p. 253). Unless mommy's calculations are off, she is telling us that 609 B.C.E. is the date when Babylon's 70 years of domination started.

    The seventy yeras refered to in Isaiah 23: 15 are for Tyre alone as the text clearly states. The Isaiah commentary merely shows that the seventy yeras for Tyre and Judah were to run concurrently and applied to that sapect of Babylonish domination (servitude) as foretold by Jeremiah at 25:11 as 'these nations will serve'.

    False...mommy admits that Tyre never did serve Babylon for 70 years. How can there be two concurrent overlapping periods of 70 years when Tyre's period is much shorter than 70 years? Mommy says instead that the period in which Tyre was humbled was part of a 70 years of domination by Babylon and different nations came under this domination at different times. This domination ended in 539 B.C.E. Your attempt to posit two concurrent overlapping 70-year periods misses the whole point of mommy's reference to Jeremiah 25.

    Using all of my scholarly brain power I arrive at 609 which for intents and purposes is a useless date because nothing happened in that year which ammounts to any consensus within scholarship.

    LOL!! Going by universally-accepted (except for mommy) chronology, 609 B.C.E. was (1) the final defeat of the Assyrians at Harran -- an event that ended the Assyrian Empire (cf. Insight, Vol. 1, p. 205), (2) the year when Pharoah Necho, trying to assist the Assyrians, defeated the Babylonians at Carchemish, (3) the year of the last major battle of the Judahites, against Pharoah Necho and his army at Megiddo (producing a chronologically-relevant synchronism with Egyptian history), which (4) ended Josiah's life and the reign of the last faithful Yahwist king. It was thus a year that saw Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, and Judah in armed conflict. Quite an eventful year! Going by even mommy's chronology, 609 B.C.E. was (5) the year Nebuchadnezzer laid seige to Jerusalem, completely fulfilling Jeremiah's cooking-pot prophecy (Jeremiah 1:13-16), according to mommy (cf. w77 12/15, p. 760), and (6) the completion of the last of the unfulfilled sabbatical years.

    WT scholars have shown to their great credit, considerable wisdom and ingenuity in the selection quite arbitrarily of the pivotal date 539 for the Fall of Babylon.

    LOL!! So you are admitting that mommy's chronology rests on an arbitrary basis? This raises again the issue that you have avoided time and time again. There are many different absolute and pivotal dates to use. You arbitrarily start off with 539 which then, according to you, makes 587 impossible as the date of Jerusalem's fall. But I can start off with a different date entirely, and apply mommy's interpretation of the 70 years, which leaves 587 entirely intact, no problemo! I have no issue to pick at all with the validity of 539 per se, but only to note that mommy's interpretation of the 70 years has radically different results depending on which date you start off with (and curious how you happen to choose the date that makes mommy's 70 years conflict with 587), whereas the chronological framework accepted by everyone else derives the same result from any of the possible absolute dates.

    This date (i..e 539) is universally accepted by scholars because it is based on astronomical evidence, secular and biblical history. Thus it is the most well attested date in OT history and serves as the only suitable candidate for the purposes of chronology.

    It is universally accepted by scholars just as the other absolute dates are, which you are forced to arbitrarily omit because they conflict with your chronology. You could just as well be lauding the virtues of 605 BCE as a pivotal date (the Battle of Carchemish, based independently on one of several absolute dates), but you don't because if you use that as an anchor date, 607 BCE as the date of Jerusalem's fall becomes totally impossible.

    Second, you say that 539 is based on "biblical history" and is "the most well attested date in OT history and the only suitable candidate for the purposes of chronology". False....there is no biblical date associated with the fall of Babylon, the event is certainly described and prophesied about, but there are no dated synchronisms or other indications in the Bible itself as to when this happened (e.g. saying something like "Babylon was conquered 154 years before the third year of King XXXX" or "Babylon was conquered in the fourteenth year of King XXXX). In contrast, Jeremiah 46:2 provides exactly this sort of information for the Battle of Carchemish ("in the fourth year of King Jehoiakim", which is also synchronized with Babylonian chronology in 25:1), which is solidly fixed by astronomical and secular evidence to 605 BC. Thus you arbitrarily choose between anchor dates, yet choose the date that just so happens to produce a conflict with 587 BC when mommy's interpretation of the 70 years is added.

    It is true that there are many other dates that could serve as a pivotal date and such dates are used by other scholats such as Thiele but why not use the best date if one is available?

    Interesting that mommy's interpretation of the 70 years is forcing you to choose between solidly established anchor dates, something actual scholars of the period don't actually do. Earlier in this thread, I already presented reasons why 605 is an even slightly better-attested date than 539.

    Our chronology is based on our methodology which would differ from the methodology of Thiele, Finegan etc.

    A flawed methodology, yes. One that Thiele, Finegan, etc. would never contemplate.

    So, to answer your question as to why and how we discriminate with 539 it is simply the case that we have a precise methodology that is Bible based and it matters not that there is a twenty year gap between the biblical and secular chronology or the sacred and profane chronology.

    Yet if you start off with 605 BC as indicated, your cherished 607 date disappears in smoke, 587 BC is perfectly acceptable and not in conflict with mommy's interpretation of the 70 years at all (and thus, by your own criteria, is perfectly Bible-based), and the Persian chronology (including 539 BC) is off by 20 years or so which is perfectly acceptable because "it matters not that there is a twenty years gap between the biblical and secular chronology or the sacred and profane chronology".

    Of course, this equally plausible scenario is unthinkable because mommy doesn't think this way.

  • scholar
    scholar

    Jeffro

    You should read the Insight article again because it discusses two phases or events which marked the end of Assyria and thaes are the fall of Nineveh and the events after the fall of Haran. The Insight material simply replicates what historians state concerning the end of Assyria which is usually marked by the fall of the capital Nineveh. For this reason the end of Assyria is rather too fluid and the dates given by authorities range from 612 to 605 so that is why it is impossible to use a non-existent as a basis for chronology.

    I agree that Jeremiah 25:12 is rather clear on the matter because the text clearly dates that after the seventy year period had finished then Babylon would receive due punishment and this clearly happened after 537 when in the corse of time it eventually became a devastated place. It is certainly the case that Babylon domination as a World Power ceased in 539 with the overthrow of the city as foretold by the prophets but Jeremiah was not referring to that immediate event but to a process of desolation which affected the entire land of Chaldea.

    If you want to debate the chronology of the Divided Monarchy then perhaps you should read Thgiele's book on the subject because the chronology of this period is very complex or perhaps you will take up my challenge to all posters on this boaard to propose a chronology for the Divided Monarchy as WT scholars have done in the Insight and Aid books.

    scholar JW

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro
    If you want to debate the chronology of the Divided Monarchy then perhaps you should read Thgiele's book on the subject because the chronology of this period is very complex or perhaps you will take up my challenge to all posters on this boaard to propose a chronology for the Divided Monarchy as WT scholars have done in the Insight and Aid books.

    Scholar, you have demonstrated again that you ignore others' posts. I have already done this. I have an Excel file of the entire divided monarchy that I created using only the bible for the divided monarchy.

  • scholar
    scholar

    Leolaia

    You really are a funny gal like your silly thesis on cross vs stake posted recently. Jeremiah refers to a seventy year period of desolation and servitude to Babylon which also included other nations who also had to serve Babylon. Isaiah simply speaks of Tyre would be forgotten for seventy years which is no doubt tied to one of the nations referred to by Jeremiah. This implies that Tyre also would come the domination of Babylon so we have a seventy period of desolation and servitude for Judah and the nations including Tyre which in its case was a period of loss as Isaaiah foretold. The mention of two periods running concurrently as I have suggested is not without scholarly support for Professor Delitzsch in his commentary, p.414 refers that Tyre'e seventy years was periodized and coincided with the seventy yeras of Jeremiah that is the duration of Chaldean rule.

    The points you raise about 609 are plainly false because authorities cannot determine which event precisely marked the end of Assyria and therefore which year should serve as a marker. It seems that the fall of Nineveh enjoys general acceptance for 612 but some propose 605. So this leaves 609 up in the air.

    Why do not you tabulate and compare the Society's method using 539 to 607 and compare that with your method arriving at 587 using your preferred pivotal date? It all come down to differing methodologies but ours is more superior as such tabulation would show. The selection of 539 for the fall of Babylon is the most suitable candidate because it describes a most momentous event in biblical and secular history and can be determined by other Absolute dates, also it is properly placed amidst the very events relative to it namely the seventy years.

    You claim that our methodology is flawed but this is impossible because it is solidly based on 539 which is an agreed date with the release of the captives in 537 which is also very plausible, from this a period of seventy years is marked off which takes us to the begnning with 607. This is a rational, secularized, biblical interpretation of events. Now you have a different methodology which gives you a different result, well that is fine. You have your chronology and I have mine and we can argur tha pros and cons until the cows come home.

    scholar JW

  • scholar
    scholar

    Leolaia

    Perhaps I need to clarify my comments on methodology as I have made a similar observation on this board. The Jonsson hypothesis along with most secular chronologies including Thiele are in fact a regnal based chronology. This means that the chronology uses one or more absolute dates and then uses the reigns of kings to determine a relative chronology.

    In contrast, WT chronology is a modern day refinement of Ussher's chronology as set forth in his Annals Of The World, a chronology made popular by its appearance as a marginal apparatus in the King James Version. WT chronology follows a similar pattern in that it is in fact both a regnal based and period based chronology. This is such a biblical chronology is superior because it combines the regnal data of kings with the historical data of periods or epochs. The period involved in this case is of course the sevenrty year period which in combination of the regnal data of the reigning monarchs provides a simple and coherent chronology.

    The Jonsson hypothesis has no need for the seventy years becaus its key dates are not dependent on it but it is essential for WT chronology which has determined that the seventy years was a genuine historical event between the fall of Jerusalem in 607 and the retrurn to Jerusalem in 537. The Jonsson hypothesis grudgingly admits to the seventy years but one can forsee that its author will come to view it as merely a round number because he cannot determine with any precision its chronology. Hence, the argument raised about 605 or 609.

    I would suggest that all wiley poztates convene a conference whereby it can be resolved at what year the seventy yeras began and in what year marks the fall of Jerusalem and then have this new refinement published in a leading academic journal so that all scholars can be thus enllightened by these new revelations from the ES class.

    scholar JW

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step


    Scholar,

    You really are a funny gal like your silly thesis on cross vs stake posted recently.

    Your condescention cannot pull you from the pit that you have dug yourself on this thread Neil. You have backtracked, performed theological acrobatics, ignored scriptual realities, blustered hopefully, shifted goalposts and eventually seem driven to reassess your own position by trying once again to sling mud at Carl Jonsson hoping some will stick.Can you not understand that if you remove your cultist glasses and look at this issue honestly, both the Biblical record and secular facts *can* be rationalized without having to invent dates.

    You must think that the readers are incredibly stupid if they cannot see through you at this stage.

    You are a proud man Scholar, but forgive me for saying it rather dense in many ways. You might learn much from the example of Greg Stafford.

    HS

  • toreador
    toreador

    How is ol Greg Stafford these days. I sure havent heard much about him for awhile.

    Tor

  • scholar
    scholar

    hilary_step

    Perhaps it is you and those wiley poztates that need to remove cultish glasses made by the Jonsson hypothesis which is a clever piece of subterfuge. The biblical facts are simple and quite clear and cannot support the complexity of the Jonsson hypothesis but merely direct a sincere Bible student to the real theological significance of the seventy years. The Jonsson hypothesis does not require honesty but gullibility as it encourages its devotees to walk on the road of the higher critic. Jehovah's Witnesses believe that the Bible should take precedence over the misguided views of the many and when it speaks of the seventy years as a period of desolation-exile-servitude then these facts must be full recognized. Over these many posts I have simply argued what the the seventy years stands for and it does not require a pit, acrobatics. goalposts for the matter is self evident.

    scholar JW

  • scholar
    scholar

    Jeffro

    Well if you have a personal compilation of the Divided Monarchy then post it on this board. I have for the last three years appealed for such to be posted but nobody had the courage to do so. When you have posted your chronology then it can be compared with other chronologies of the Divided Monarchy and then you will be asked to explain the differences of which there will be many.

    scholar JW

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