About Terri Schiavo and Disability

by Yizuman 32 Replies latest jw friends

  • Yizuman
    Yizuman
    rwagoner wrote: Kennedy, F. (1942). The problem of social control of the congenital defective - Education, sterilization, euthanasia. American Journal of Psychiatry, 99, 13-16.


    Googling that, I found some interesting articles based on this information as provided by rwagoner...

    Link One

    Link Two

    Here's an interesting list of members of the Eugenics Society

    I like to add some of my thoughts here. Let's say for the sake of the argument that one could say he or she has the right to die if they are facing a terminal illness with no hope of recovery.

    Ok, let's say he or she is right for the moment. What if this type of thought becomes a purcursor to something else? Let's just say that a team of scientist evaluates and researches thousands and thousands of documents of patients who all said they rather die than suffer from a terminal illness. So this team of scientists gather their notes together and talk something like this.....

    "As we can see, it's very common for all patients that prefers death than to suffer an end from a terminal disease. How about we have a talk with Congress about making a manitory law for doctors to pull the plug on patients who is facing a terminal disease? I mean, this is considered merciful, isn't it? I mean, who are we as human beings that would rather watch a patient waste away in bed knowing they're going to die a horrible death? It would be inhumane to allow them to suffer in such a matter as this.

    So they would present arguments to Congress about better ways for patients to be put to death as a merciful and humane means than to allow the patient to suffer bedridden years in the hospital waiting for death to overtake them. Granted that the argument could take years before the thought becomes popular within Congress that it would be more preferable and merciful to hasten the death of the patient rather than allow them to spend years of suffering being bedridden while waiting to die.

    It could also be argued in Congress that it would also be economically merciful for the patient as well as their families to hasten the death of the patient and save thousands of dollars, if not millions, being wasted on a patient who have no hope of recovery.

    Congress, if this could ever happen, (never say it could never happen, because it happened before and it could happen again) could also take away the rights of the parents/guardian who is financially caring for the patient and hand the rights to the doctors to determine the life of the patient, whether or not the parent/guardian agrees with their decision. The doctor would have the right to terminate the life of the patient if he or she deemed the patient unfit for living and therefore should be hastened to death to make room for those that do have a better chance of recovery and living a better, healthy life.

    Congress could also argue that it would be inhumane for a patient to suffer and charge against those who desire the patient to live as uncaring monsters simply because he or she wants the person to live simply because he or she loves them, refusing to treat the loved one as "unwanted" and "undesirable". Congress could also argue that the patient, wanting to live, is considered mentally unstable and unable to think rationally that the patient prefers to suffer a terminal disease rather than being hasten to death.

    So, what if this become a purcursor to something else? Always, a thought of one becomes a purcursor to a thought of something else. It always has a domino effect.

    So what if this thought starts heading into the direction of those that have a disability, in plain view or hidden from view?

    I read sometime back that scientists are discovering ways to create and read a genetic map of the unborn child to find and discover whether or not the child will be born with a genetic "defect" or some type of disease that the child could develop in having either from the moment they are born or later in life.

    This is quite scary to read this, because the moment a doctor discovers that the child could be born "malformed", as it were, that he or she could be born without legs, or be blind, or be deaf, or born with some type of deformity or disease that the doctor could consider "less than human". So what if the doctor presents their finding to the parent(s) that the child will be born with something other than what is considered a normal and healthy child?

    This could lead to the determination of whether the child should be allowed to be born or aborted from the womb if the child is deemed "undesirable". Sure, every parent wants a normal and healthy child. But, by what right do the doctor and the parent have in determining what is "normal" by society's standard?

    I am deaf, so if this genetic mapping technology existed in my time in 1963 before I was born in August 1964 and the doctor presented the finding to my parents that I will develop German Measles at the age of 3 which will result in a total hearing loss. Should I have been prevented from being born in order to prevent me from becoming deaf by the age of 3? Would it have been more preferable that I should be dead than living a life of deafness?

    Folks, these kinds of things could lead to an awful lot of problems for the human race, not for the better of it IMHO, but it could create a society that no one with any kind of disability or disease should be allowed to live. Should we allow a society to create a "unwanted" and "undesirable" set of laws against those that is considered "unfit" to be part of society as a whole?

    I like to introduce to you a woman who is now in a wheelchair, paralyzed from the neck down from a swimming accident years ago. Her name is Joni Eareckson-Tada. She's an amazing woman who learned to paint while holding a paint brush from her mouth. She is also a beautiful singer. She is also an advocate for the disability. Here is her website..........Joni and Friends

    Yiz

  • Yizuman
    Yizuman

    Here's a video of Joni Eareckson Tada

    28.8 kbps Video

    56 kpbs Videi

    Broadband Video

    Yiz

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    Yiz

    I would love to know how we as humans could sink so low as to call someone a vegetable so we can kill them.

    D Dog

  • Slick Willie
    Slick Willie

    Yiz,

    What you've said here is very disturbing, especially since it could well happen. The 'Right to Die' soon becomes the 'Obligation to Die.' I saw a woman on cable news yesterday, a 'fiscal conservative' who said society has no obligation to care for people like Terri Schiavo since she is an economic drain on the system. I can easily see this thought being applied to whole groups of people society deems without value. This is truly a frightening prospect!

    Thanks for your post.

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    Slick

    $$$$ You just hit the nail on the head! I don't think anyone will care until we call them a vegetable to their face.

    D Dog

  • Yizuman
    Yizuman

    Yes, financial means to kill her. Michael Schiavo has often expressed under a court document by a witness who happens to be a nurse who cared for Terri. He stated, "When is the bitch gonna die?" and if something went wrong with Terri, Michael's face would light up like a Christmas tree and stated, "I'm gonna be rich!" which indicates that Michael had put out a life insurance on her that would allow him to inherit a very large sum of money in the event that she dies. So yes, Michael stands to lose alot of money keeping her alive, but also stands to gain more if she dies.

    Yiz

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    Nice to see you are seeking to get some support for your own beliefs on the back of this poor woman's situation Yiz.

    Pity you have to make such a distorted argument.

    This is about an individual's rights to self determination. Naturally you would oppose a person's self determination if it were contrary to your beliefs. Quite why you consider it your right to interfere with another's human rights I don't know.

    As you also oppose abortion, in your head arguments about eugenics that were discredited even before Hitler used them have relevance; probably why some of your quotes date from the turn of the last century.

    But the rights or wrongs of abortion are a different case to one where an adult human has expressed a desire.

    Abortion is over whether the unborn have the same rights as the born and how the rights of the mother must also be considered. In a sane health system where only 0.7% of abortions take place at a point where there is more than 2 grammes of nerve tissue, many people feel abortion is not a problem at a stage where there is no question of equivalence between an unborn and a born baby.

    Because of your religious beliefs you put the rights of something with less nerve tissue than a pet rat ahead of women. Nice to know woman have their place in your world.

    To garner support you portray slippery slopes where there are none. When people are talking about self-determination you drag up the propaganda and philosophy of a political belief system which did not hold individual human rights to be of importance.

    You compare people campaigning FOR human rights with those who didn't believe in human rights.

    Isn't this a little deceitful? Do you support the intervention of government to stop someone dying when this was their stated wish in such an eventuality?

    I also love the selectiveness of the medical opinions those supporting her right to continue to respire quote. I've read both the sides of the evidence presented.

    I also note claims made about life assurance policies, which is an out-and-out lie at worst, or unfounded character assassination at best.

    I never get it when people who claim they are 'right' lie to defend their opinion. Surely if they were right deceit and falsehood would not be necessary? Or is this 'theocratic warfare'?

    No mention of her husband's refusal of $1,000,000 to keep her alive. No mention of how the trial judge is described as "conservative, religious and particularly sensitive to protecting the disabled.", and still rules the way he does. No mention that somehow her parents FORGOT to mention she 'tried to speak' when the feeding tube was removed, but only used this claim in the latest appeal, rather than at the time.

    This is a tragic case. Quite frankly both the family and the husband don't strike me as particularly nice people, but it would seem he is sincere in wanting her expressed wishes carried out (even if it looses him $1,000,000), and that her family are sincere in keeping her respirating. It has however turned into a media circus, with every lobby group grabbing the facts they want and twisting them for all they are worth.

    Seems where there is circuses there is clowns... and lions... which are more dangerous is a metter of opinion...

  • Yizuman
    Yizuman

    Abaddon,

    What you have totally ignored is the lack of her stated will of what she wants done with her life if she ever became what she is now. There is absolutely no written record of her stated wishes on file with her attorney or any written will in any form. It's all about the voice of one, her husband, period.

    Since there is no written will of any form, how do we know what it is that she really wants? Until such a written form is produced in her signature, we cannot therefore assume that this is her wish to die or assume from someone such as her husband that it is her wish to die.

    Assumption can be a very dangerous thing. If the assumption is wrong, we're going against the will of someone who may very well have a wish to live.

    How can you be selfish to use her as an example to prove a point of what it is YOU want in order to create and grant laws based on solely of what it is that you want with your life, should you ever come to state that you cannot express your wish verbally or physically or both that you rather be dead than be bedridden for life in some medical facility?

    If you wish for the doctor to pull the plug on you if you ever become incompacitated to express your wish and desires to be dead so you don't have to wallow in bed in self pity (woe is me) because of your current state of condition. Make sure you have a written will first and foremost now with your attorney.

    But for now, this woman has no written will, so anyone just like Terry is in danger of having their life support being unplugged simply because some doctor will assume that they prefer to be dead than live a bedridden life in some medical facility when that very thought could very well be wrong when the patient is very much wanting to be alive than dead. Also that the very same patient is very willing to live with the consequences of the current condition that he or she may or will be in.

    What's wrong with the idea of people in general that is willing to LOVE and CARE for someone and treats that someone as a human being??

    You stated that unborn children (I assume *there's that word huh?* at any stage up to 9 months) is nothing but a blob of nerve tissue. I'm sure that you would even have no problem with the idea that a woman would give birth to a full 9 month old baby like that Prom Queen Mother did and strangle the baby to death, put the baby in a trash bag (as I would *assume* that you think a baby in a trash bag is appropriate way of treating a baby, a piece of trash), depose of the baby in a trash can and then walk back to the dance floor as if everything is all normal.

    So unborn babies aren't human beings Abaddon? What about Terry, Abaddon? Is she human or is she no longer a human being but rather a vegetable instead Abaddon? What about me, Abaddon? I am deaf, so am I just a walking piece of trash Abaddon?

    How do you define who is human and who isn't Abaddon? I like to know exactly what your thoughts are as to what is defined "human".

    How about my being a Christian Abaddon? Am I no longer a human being because I gave my life over to Jesus Christ and made Him as Lord and Savior of my life? Because I now care about human beings and love them unconditionally just as God loves everyone unconditionally? That makes me less than human Abaddon? I didn't give a flying frak about people before I became a Christian Abaddon, simply because I was bitter and hateful towards everyone and blamed everyone for the messy life that I was in many years ago. I guess my previous life was more human to you than what I am now, wasn't it?

    Does my caring and love for others make you sick in the pit of your stomach Abaddon?

    Yiz

  • happyout
    happyout

    Wow, I kind of hesitate to jump into the middle of Abaddon and Yiz' personal war, but I really hate the way people (Yiz) twist the known facts of this case.

    It isn't just the husband's word, there are two other people who claim that Terri specifically stated that she didn't want to live in this kind of condition. That is a fact, and whether or not you choose to believe them, it doesn't change the fact that more than her husband says they heard this directly from Terri. The people who have said the husband "rejoiced" in the thought of Terri dying have all been discredited. As a matter of fact, Yiz, the hospice once tried to get a restraining order against Michael because they felt he was trying to get them to focus too much attention on Terri, to the detriment of other patients. That's a fact.

    And, really, to leap to the conclusion that the US government would over ride an entire family's wishes and start putting people to death is ludicrous. The US doesn't even want capable people to have assisted suicide, it really takes a leap of logic and common sense to think they would suddenly start demanding euthanasia for anyone they deemed suitable. Many parts of the government (Congress especially) stepped in to try to re-insert the feeding tube, DESPITE the fact that her legal guardian legally had it removed.

    I don't know much about your religious beliefs, your stance on abortion, your alleged love of people, Yiz, and it doesn't matter in terms of this discussion. And I don't know anything about Abaddon's beliefs. This isn't about that, or at least it shouldn't be. If you want to have a reasonable, intelligent conversation about a controversial topic like this, it's best not to inject rather ridiculous statements about wanting people put to death because they can't hear. Smacks of self pity to me.

    Just my opinion, hope no one is too offended.

    Happyout - who wouldn't want to "live" like that, by the way

  • bisous
    bisous
    Does my caring and love for others make you sick in the pit of your stomach Abaddon?


    your condescending tone certainly should.

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