Good points made Cherise!!!
That was one of my major points. We have to trust the people who are entrusted to weigh evidence and make dcisions about what a person might want if there is not implict written record. The self serving media and such is not a proper avenue for making judgement calls about what really happened.
I've seen people furious on here that the husband is going to "deny" her a "proper" Catholic burial. And "what's the harm of letting the parent's have this last request?"
Can I ask you, if the Jdubs had some odd funeral rite and your mate knew you wouldn't want those things done to your body.... wouldn't you expect him/her to honor those wishes. Simply giving in to the pressure of parents who may or may not accepted your wishes to fulfill their own guilt, honor, system?
If you want certain procedures followed make sure to create a living will and instructions on how you would want medical treament applied / withheld...that's all I'm saying. It's too late for Terri and we have to assume that the many multiple courts and judges have interpreted what she would have wanted.
About Terri Schiavo and Disability
by Yizuman 32 Replies latest jw friends
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EvilForce
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happyout
First, CeriseRose, great points, post, and my sympathy for what you went through. Isn't it maddening when people take things totally out of context, twist your words, all to prove they're "right"?
Yiz, you said ?Otherwise, verbal words means nothing.?
Once again, you are choosing emotionalism over facts. Legally, a verbal contract is just as enforceable and binding as a written one.
Yiz, you spoke about ?The doctor's point of view?. While this is really sad, and you have my complete sympathy, you are correct, it was only ?The doctor's point of view?. If that is provable, that he deliberately let your mom die, you should take him to court. I can testify, however, that there are many doctor?s who DON?T believe that kind of thing, as my grandmother was given a pacemaker when she was over 90 years old. Her doctor?s point of view was different from your mother?s.
And you can?t compare one doctor?s opinion and action to an entire legal system, it?s simply not reasonable. And, as pointed out in an earlier post, the US is moving fast in the direction of the religious ?right?, so again, your comparing this to the growth of the Nazi?s makes you sound totally illogical, unreasonable, and as though you have to use scare tactics to try to make your point.
I loved the point about how you would react if the JWs tried to interfere and force some treatment or burial rite that you knew your loved one would not want. I believe most people on this board would fight tooth and nail to ensure their loved ones wishes were respected.
And while Michael has moved on with his life, it?s not like he abandoned Terri. He has never stopped visiting here, ensuring that she was cared for, and trying to have her wishes carried out. If he really, truly didn?t care about her, it would have been far easier to go away and let her parents take over. Love changes when one of the partners brains stops functioning, there?s no way to maintain a ?marriage? in that situation. But he never walked away from her, and that says a lot.
I will leave this argument now, simply because I don?t believe you can change anyone?s opinion, and it?s gotten past logic and moved onto insults and name calling. It?s a heart wrenching decision, and I pray that both sides of her family find peace.
Happyout
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the_classicist
Um, I was very clear that I was not commenting on Terri, but on terminally ill people. The original post spoke of them and the right to die. I also said I wasn't qualified to make comment on Terri or her condition because I don't know enough about it (although I'm sure, as most people here have, I've read a ton on it...the difference is, I don't choose to make myself any sort of an authority on the issue based on reading from the media, court transcripts, etc.).
I also asked that I was not attacked for my comments. They are food for thought, and contribute only from a the angle of a person who has been a caregiver to a terminally ill person. I personally don't think that human beings are "meant" to experience suffering, and your response about "cower out and kill ourselves"...well let's just say I hope you don't EVER have to go through one-tenth of what my parents did. Neither was a coward nor suicidal. Their bodies were done and their minds were ready for it.
In light of what my post was about (terminal illness), your comments are really irrelevant to it.
I wasn't attacking you or trying to twist your words. If it was interpreted that way, I am sorry. I was merely speaking in general terms, I was simply making the point that many people say she is on life support when, considering the abilities of her body to function on its on, is not true. I was actually only going to copy the little bit about life support and contrast it, but I didn't as I thought that it would be poor form to take things out of context.
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Mary
Let's just say that a team of scientist evaluates and researches thousands and thousands of documents of patients who all said they rather die than suffer from a terminal illness......So they would present arguments to Congress about better ways for patients to be put to death as a merciful and humane means than to allow the patient to suffer bedridden years in the hospital waiting for death to overtake them.
Yizuman, it's very unlikely that such a scenario would ever happen. Congress did not get involved in the Terry Schiavo case on it's own, it was Terri's parents who who got Congress, the Governor of Florida, the President of the United States, the media and everyone else in the free world involved in what should have been a private family matter. And I sincerely doubt that Congress would view people with disabilities such as yourself, with Terry Schiavo. Although you are deaf, you can still have quality of life. You can eat, dress yourself, take care of yourself, work, think, reason, make plans for your future, drive a car, etc. etc. etc. Terry Schiavo cannot do anything. This poor soul cannot eat on her own, move, think, clean herself---nothing. No one's even sure if she's conscience of her surroundings. If she's not, then what on earth would be the point to her living? And if she is conscience of her surroundings, then she must be living a nightmare worse than anything the Brothers Grimm could come up with.
There are laws and regulations that protect people who are disabled, and I am not aware of any move to try and discriminate against them. Terry Schiavo is not disabled. This woman is just existing, she's not even living and I'm glad that she's going to be allowed to pass on rather than continually put her through hell for another 20 or 30 years.
Michael Schiavo has often expressed under a court document by a witness who happens to be a nurse who cared for Terri. He stated, "When is the bitch gonna die?" and if something went wrong with Terri, Michael's face would light up like a Christmas tree and stated, "I'm gonna be rich!"
This is assumption and highly suspicious seeing as the nurse who claims he said this, was fired for incompetence. And I sincerely doubt that any husband would openly yell "I'm gonna be rich!" in front of a bunch of eye witnesses. As well, Michael Schiavo turned down a very large sum of money to turn his wife over to the care of her parents. If monetary gain was his real motive, then why didn't he take the offer? Perhaps he feels that his wife's wishes should be respected, even if it means turning down a million dollars.
Too many people are sticking their heads in the sand and are not paying attention to what's going on around us in our society. Some are, but not all of them.
Oh pu-lease, give me a break. Disabled people have more Rights now than what they've ever had in the history of mankind. Where do you dream this stuff up?
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BrendaCloutier
Iron Gland
Tom "reinsert the tube" DeLay's father....
Thank you.
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IronGland
I lost my respect for the Schindlers when I found out they turned on Michael only after he denied promising to share half of Terri's malpractice settlement with them.Anyone who thinks the Schindlers are innocent lambs who simply want to save Terri from her big, bad, heartless husband has been completely duped by the media circus spin.
The Randall Terry thing as well...though I have to say that hearing that they'd be willing to subject Terri to amputation and surgeries to keep her alive pretty much had me wanting them put away somewhere. Whatever their politics, it is clear to me that they are insane, and have been since almost day 1.
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Golf
Yiz you may enjoy this, "State of Florida arrested a rancher in Immokalee Florida for starving his cows!"
Golf -
zanex
(chuckles) (shakes head...) yiz, it seems as though an objective opinion is best given and personal innuendo is best left at home...long time since I jumped on one of yer threads...looks like nuthin's changed. lol.
as has been mentioned disabled people have more rights in todays world than ever before. Bein deaf is no longer a debilitating handicap...comparing it to the vegetable woman seems a bit out of context but hey whatever floats yer boat.
(zanex of the been around deaf people forever class)
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CeriseRose
I wasn't attacking you or trying to twist your words. If it was interpreted that way, I am sorry. I was merely speaking in general terms, I was simply making the point that many people say she is on life support when, considering the abilities of her body to function on its on, is not true. I was actually only going to copy the little bit about life support and contrast it, but I didn't as I thought that it would be poor form to take things out of context.
Eh, no worries really. I just wanted to make the point very clear that yes, there is a difference between Terri's case and the terminal illness I described.
Can someone explain something to me please, in a fairly calm and rational manner? Because I just don't get how people (not just here but in many boards) keep saying a feeding tube is not life support. I'm not trying to be stupid here, but a basic premise of life is that if you don't eat, you die. If you physically can't eat (which I understand Terri cannot do at this time although years ago she could and when that declined they started the feeding tube), you will die. So how is a feeding tube, when you don't have another option to get nourishment, not a measure of supporting life?
I realize it's not a breathing, or heart/lung machine, but I'm really and truly not seeing the distinction many seem to be making. Help?
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NewLight2
Disabled seek law on sustaining life
http://www.startribune.com/stories/587/5317330.html
Conrad Defiebre, Star Tribune
March 29, 2005 DISABLE0329
Claiming that there is "a fine line in the sand"
between a persistent vegetative state and other
disabilities, quadriplegics and their advocates
called Monday for a law that would sustain the
lives of Minnesotans in cases like Terri
Schiavo's.
"We must not acquiesce to the culture of death
and disregard for disability being promoted in
our nation," Jean Swenson, who has used a
wheelchair for 25 years, said at a State Capitol
news conference. "Responsible and
compassionate societies always protect and care
for their most vulnerable citizens."
Swenson is part of a group that has asked
Minnesota legislators to prohibit withdrawal of
nourishment from comatose or vegetative
patients who haven't authorized it in a medical
directive.
The group drew comparisons between Schiavo,
the brain-damaged Florida woman at the center
of a national controversy, and some of those at
the news conference, including an 18-year-old
stroke victim who uses a feeding tube and a
15-year-old who plays adaptive sports despite
severe birth defects.
If Schiavo told relatives that she didn't want to
be kept alive by extraordinary means before she
lapsed into apparent unconsciousness 15 years
ago, she "may not have been fully aware of how
precious life is," said Don Bania Jr. of Corcoran,
a quadriplegic for 34 years.
After Schiavo's feeding tube was removed
March 18 following years of legal dispute
between her husband and her parents, Congress
and President Bush enacted emergency
legislation to move the case to federal courts.
Those courts, however, have declined to order
the tube's reinsertion.
Medical experts say Schiavo is likely to die
within two weeks without food or water.
"We ask that our legislators defend our lives
and protect us from death by starvation and
dehydration," said a written statement released
at the news conference. "It is a cruel, prolonged,
agonizing death sentence that we don't impose
on our most hardened criminals."
Bania said the Schiavo controversy pits a belief
that "life is a precious gift" against one holding
that "people with disabilities lack value and
purpose."
The group's statement added: " 'Rehabilitative
potential' is irrelevant to this discussion, and we
respectfully ask others to respect our wish to
live just as we are, in our current conditions."
Rep. Ray Vandeveer, R-Forest Lake, said
Monday that he and Sen. Michele Bachmann,
R-Stillwater, are researching possible legislation
at the group's request. The first step, he said, is
to determine the current state of the law in
Minnesota in cases like Schiavo's.
With deadlines for committee action on bills
approaching next month, Vandeveer added,
there may not be time to change the law this
year. "This is legislation we'd want to be
extremely careful about," he said.
Said Bachmann: "It's far more complicated than
we had thought. We don't want to bind family
members in a difficult situation."
Conrad deFiebre is at
[email protected].