Evidence for evolution, Installment 3a: Mitochondrial DNA and Neandertals

by seattleniceguy 48 Replies latest jw friends

  • donkey
    donkey

    SNG,

    Nice presentation. I have made some similar ones in the past. You should also check into Male-Chromosonal Adam so as not to be accused of being sexist!!!

    At any rate the really cool piece thing about both ME (Mito. Eve) and YCA (Y-Chromosonal Adam) are the implications against the need for Jesus to redeem us from Adamic sin. The whole concept of Jesus being a ransom to redeem mankind from adamic sin is kapooof when one considers the strong science of ME and YCA. No chrsitian can argue successfully against it without compromising his/her own biblical beliefs or without admitting she/he does not accept the bliblical accounts. This then becomes massively faith destroying to a literal believer IF THEY THINK ABOUT IT.

    BTW: YCA has to be traced back to Noah (4.300) years ago according to bliblical chronology vs YCA existing at least 60,000 years ago. This is the best the bible sloths can do as ME is a 175.000-250,000 year duration and that one is brought under dispute because some Danish scientists found some man who they claim had mTDna inhertited from his paternal line and of course every chrisitan crackpot hangs onto that when they discover it.

    Donkey

  • hooberus
    hooberus
    I see you've mentioned Parson's paper. Yes he did (at first) report that mutation rates in mitochondria were about 20 times higher than the currently accepted figure. That would have brought the age of the MRCA around the 6000 year mark. Understandably, creationists jumped on it. But his work involved a hypervariable region which has a higher rate of mutation than other regions of the mtDNA. Others have noted that factor, as did he.

    There also appears to be other regions as well that may generate rates close to the Biblical timeline.

    http://naturalselection.0catch.com/Files/DNA%20Mutation%20Rates.html

    I'm glad you've mentioned though how some empirical work produced values that came close with the currently accepted mutation rate.

    The cited evolutionist arcticle did claim that, however I don't believe that it listed the specific study/studies.

    I think its very interesting to see how several different methods point to a very similar answer. So you can dispute the assumptions of the divergence , or colonization dates, but those two approaches combined with empirical evidence do apparently point to one reality: we've been here longer than any Genesis literalist or creationist would like to admit.

    The standard method (based on the assumption of evolution to begin with), may receive some support from claimed colonization rates, and possibly some empircal studies. It should also be noted that the various evolutionary based studies have a large range, thus they do not appear to be pointing consistently.

    The Biblical method is based on claimed history, and does appear to receive support from some empirical studies (see earlier link), though there appears to be a substantial range even within empirical studies.

    Even if we were to go with the rate from the pooled data (about 5 times higher - so MRCA roughly 30,000 yrs ago?) it still causes problems for those believing in the historicity of Genesis.

    Its difficult to evaluate a claim of "pooled data" since we need to know what assumptions were included, and what were excluded (for example were any mtDNA regions giving rapid rates excluded merely because they are way out line with evolutionary expectations?). It should also be noted that while the "pooled data" approach generated rates which are possibly problematic for Bibilcal creationists it also generates problems for evolution as well. Assuming a uniform rate of evolution between humans and chimps the pooled data rate "which is still faster by a factor of five than the rate given by the phylogenetic approach" should cause the chimp human split to be compressed to about 1 million years ago. This is very problematic for evolution, (ie: fossil dates, population genetics, etc).

  • hooberus
    hooberus
    The standard mtDNA eve calculation method (based on the assumption of evolution to begin with), is based on the assumption that humans and chimpazees sharred a common ancestor around 4-5 million years ago. However this common ancestor has not been found, so how is the 4-5 million year date calculated? The answer I believe is:

    animal
    zoom
    Orangutan

    According the what I have read the human-chimp date is untimately itself based on a date of an Orangutan fossil from Pakistan, and the assumption that chimps and orangutans sharred a common ancestor (assumption of evolution) around 17 million years ago. So ultimately I believe many mt Eve calculations rest on orangutans combined with a host of evolutionary/uniformitarian assumptions. This is then used to attempt to disproove the Bible.

    (picture from yahoo)

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    According the what I have read the human-chimp date is untimately itself based on a date of an Orangutan/like fossil from Pakistan, and the assumption that chimps and orangutans sharred a common ancestor (assumption of evolution) around 17 million years ago. So ultimately I believe many mt Eve calculations rest on orangutans combined with a host of evolutionary/uniformitarian assumptions. This is then used to attempt to disproove the Bible.

    (I added the word "like"). Also I think that modern living orangutans may be used in the calculation as well.

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    My earlier comments were based on what I remember reading in the Encyclopedia of Human Evolution about how the human chimpanzee split is calibrated using (I think I remember) the Sivapithicus (orangutan like fossil), as a calibration point for the orangutan split.

    It looks like now evolutionists are using a more recently discovered fossil "Sahelanthropus tchadensis" to date the human chimpanzee split. Accoridng to one evolutionist arcticle:

    "Although there are no known fossil chimpanzee to date, this evidence strongly suggests that hominins and chimpanzee ancestors diverged by at least 6Mya and possibly as early as 7Mya." http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~palanth/steiper_etal_2004.pdf#search='calibrated%20chimpanzee%20split(keep in mind that arcticles such as this linked one are filled with a host of evolutionary assumptions, and that mutation rates calculated therin are based on the assumption of evolution as well as uniformitarian dating methodology).

    Based on this evolutionists are now moving the alledged human chimpanzee split claibration point back to older periods of time. This redating of the split creates an even greater discrepancy between evolutionary based estimates and pedigree mtDNA Eve studies.

  • Midget-Sasquatch
  • Midget-Sasquatch
    Midget-Sasquatch

    First I want to also say that I find your posts refreshing. You're more objective than some others I've talked to in the past.

    It should also be noted that the various evolutionary based studies have a large range, thus they do not appear to be pointing consistently.

    You have a valid point about that large range, and IMHO its good to see that scientists are being kept on their toes so to speak. I probably wasn't clear enough, but what I was saying was that those different methods of clocking the rate were generally more supportive of a date that was older than the one date expected from creation-science advocates. Even if they all didn't point to one date in particular. How trustworthy is the clock then though?

    Assuming a uniform rate of evolution between humans and chimps the pooled data rate "which is still faster by a factor of five than the rate given by the phylogenetic approach" should cause the chimp human split to be compressed to about 1 million years ago. This is very problematic for evolution, (ie: fossil dates, population genetics, etc).

    Well it could very mean that the assumption of a linear and constant rate of mutation is wrong. Maybe the rates vary in time as well as between some pedigrees. Again, the whole idea of a constant molecular clock may not be feasible. (Thats where the calibration with the fossil record and its dating comes into the picture)

    All in all, I don't think it would cause the downfall of the evolutionary view though. Mutations are the raw material afterall for natural selection to work on. Higher rates, mean more mutations, which does mean more of the deleterious and fatal ones, but along with that more of the neutral and a few of the beneficial variety to select from and that tends to increaseoverall diversity. It's been found that when E.Coli are in a starvation state, a mutator system is engaged that actually increases the rate of mutations in its DNA so that it can adapt quicker to the environment.

    Based on this evolutionists are now moving the alledged human chimpanzee split claibration point back to older periods of time. This redating of the split creates an even greater discrepancy between evolutionary based estimates and pedigree mtDNA Eve studies.

    I think you'd enjoy looking at chromosomal karyotyping. Its totally empirical. No "clocks" needed.

  • hooberus
    hooberus
    You have a valid point about that large range, and IMHO its good to see that scientists are being kept on their toes so to speak. I probably wasn't clear enough, but what I was saying was that those different methods of clocking the rate were generally more supportive of a date that was older than the one date expected from creation-science advocates.

    It should be remembered that every date calculated based primarily on the assumption of human-chimpanzee common ancestry (there are many) is not an independent method of clocking the rate, thus the many dates (ie: 171, 000, 200,000, 844,000, etc.) calculated based on this assumption are not independant witnesses supporting the current evolutionary scheme , in fact they are not even one witness supporting evolution (as they are calculated primarily based on it to begin with), but instead provide a baseline spread to potentially test the current evolution scenario by other means. Furthermore, given that the selected radiometric dates for the fossils used to calibrate the human-chimp split will almost certainly be in the "millions of years" range due to uniformitarian assumptions, all of these various starting dates will automatically be much "older" than the Bibilacal eve date.

    Pedigree dates "older" the Biblical timeline can probably be relatively easily accounted for be assuming a possible higher mtDNA mutation rate in the past. Woodmorappe discusses this in his book Noah's Ark a Feasibility Study.

    Even if they all didn't point to one date in particular. How trustworthy is the clock then though?

    Given that mtDNA may easily be capable of different speeds of rapid mutation, clock calculations may be difficult to accurately assertain, however Biblical creationists expect a generally rapid rate.

    Well it could very mean that the assumption of a linear and constant rate of mutation is wrong. Maybe the rates vary in time as well as between some pedigrees.

    I agree that this could easily be so, this is why evidence such as Neanderthal divergence is not necessarily very good evidence against a Biblical eve date.

    Again, the whole idea of a constant molecular clock may not be feasible. (Thats where the calibration with the fossil record and its dating comes into the picture)

    The mution rates (and corresponding mt Eve dates) generated using the fossil record (with a subjective interpretation of fossils*) all assume a uniform rate of evolution (as well as of course evolution) to begin with.

    *As an example of this (I believe that the following is correct, though I need to check) is that the Sivapithecus fossil/fossils were once thought to be an "ape-man" on this side of the human chimp split. Since Sivapithecus is "dated" at around 15 million years old it was used to calibrate the human-chimp split at over 15 million years ago. However, then problems developed with this date of the split and evolutionary based dates compared with other apes. Furthermore more studies revealed that Sivapithecus was essentially similar to an orangutan, so then evolutionists used Sivapithecus to date the orangutan split ! The same fossil was used first for the human-chimpanzee split and then later for the alledged much older orangutan split. Then based on the Sivapithecus orangutan split date they calibrated the human-chimp date at around 5 million years ago. This shows just how subjective evolutionary fossil evidence can be.

  • Midget-Sasquatch
    Midget-Sasquatch
    Pedigree dates "older" the Biblical timeline can probably be relatively easily accounted for be assuming a possible higher mtDNA mutation rate in the past. Woodmorappe discusses this in his book Noah's Ark a Feasibility Study.
    The mution rates (and corresponding mt Eve dates) generated using the fossil record (with a subjective interpretation of fossils*) all assume a uniform rate of evolution (as well as of course evolution) to begin with.

    Well its a more parsimonious assumption to make, than Woodmorappe's ( a rate that started off higher and slowed over time). Just how did it slow down? At a uniform rate or in discontinous steps? Is that demonstrated by empirical evidence and if so whats the rate? Both sides make assumptions.

    One side seems to have to make special assumptions at crucial points though to hold their view. There's no real evidence to support Woodmorappe's suggestion. If there is please point it out. Rather I think the evidence is that it varies between different pedigrees - which messes up the idea of a clock for each side.

    Given that mtDNA may easily be capable of different speeds of rapid mutation, clock calculations may be difficult to accurately assertain, however Biblical creationists expect a generally rapid rate.

    But they need one thats much faster than what is being empirically found. Again it cuts both ways. Lets say evolutionists may need to re-evaluate dates and mechanisms for evolution. It still doesn't topple the argument for evolution itself, because the evidence is from multiple lines, and different approaches (much empirical as well). It isn't really hinged on a specific date. The phylogenetic evidence is good. For the Genesis literalists though, the current evidence counters its historical validity.

    The same fossil was used first for the human-chimpanzee split and then later for the alledged much older orangutan split. Then based on the Sivapithecus orangutan split date they calibrated the human-chimp date at around 5 million years ago. This shows just how subjective evolutionary fossil evidence can be.

    Ahh, but don't forget that article from Nature that mentioned there was also studies done with relatively more isolated human populations. No question they were all humans. Using colonization dates, it did reasonably agree with the bandied date for the matrilineal MRCA. Thats why different lines of evidence are so useful.

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