Does "J" deal with imperfection?

upside/down

As a Dub I was always taught that the reason J couldn't deal with us directly was because He was so holy and we were so not holy, that He couldn't even deal with us directly. So we are in quarantine, through no fault of our own from our "Father" in heaven. Right?

Then how come Satan got to enter in before J Himself and question and debate before all the angels. Was "Debil the Satan" not imperfect and already fallen when the heavenly scene as recorded in Job supposedly took place? How come he gets to be in J's presence- and he was supposedly purely evil? He even got to lure J into a diabolical "bet" (isn't gambling wrong, especially with someone elses life?) to which many good people lost their lives as innocent victims of the parameters of the wager.

Something ain't addin up...

u/d (of the not as imperfect as Satan class)

Qcmbr

Isn't Job an allegory?

upside/down

Not according to the Dubs!

Even if it is "allegory", they teach Satan and his cronies weren't thrown out till 1914, right?

So they got to hang out in heaven or earth or wherever they wanted... they had access to "God's" presence. ie. taunting J. What have we done to be as isolated as fallen imperfect spirit entities? We were born into this sitch... we had no choice.

So what's the point of the "allegory" then? There seems to be too much detail for it to have been strictly a "moral of the story" kinda deal.

Just wonderin...

u/d

Golf

U.D. I've thought of that myself a number of times. The account is in the book of Job. Imperfection is imperfection be it a spirit creature or not.

In Genesis, the first human pair were 'denied' access to the garden once they were cast out, and yet, Satan was supposedly in the presence of Jah talking over Job's integrity.

How is it Satan was cast out from heaven in 1914 and not before? Yes, can anything 'unholy' be in the presence of 'The Most Holy?'

Golf

Qcmbr

Well I don't think Satan can command personal audiences with God anymore so for me that can't be true and I believe Satan and a 1/3 of heaven were cast out before Adam fell , thus Satan is stuck here and was able to tempt Adam and Eve. I don't buy the 1914 stuff but nor am I overly convinced that Job is an actual historical story (though the LDS church leans strongly towards it being a historical event - though not Satan talkig to God)

upside/down

I guess it raises another question.... why is Satan given so much opportunity? He's evil personified. Yet he gets to be released after the 1000 years to try again...

It just seem redundant to me. Adam and Eve didn't have to go through any mandatroy testing. Why do we- and being imperfect at that!?

Note: You still didn't explain the meaning of the allegory and the purpose of a heavenly meeting of J and Satan. I'm curious.

u/d

purplesofa

I believe Satan and a 1/3 of heaven were cast out before Adam fell

I talked to someone recently and this is what their belief was too. Although, I did not quite understand it from the scriptures he gave me but it made sense overall. I will have to speak with him again to get a better grip on it.

Thanks for posting this.

purps

Golf

Qcmber, if I follow that reasoning, that would mean we're all fictional! If Job is not real, what makes Satan real? Some say, Adam & Eve are not real, the Bible is not real, if that's the case, then what is?

Golf

Qcmbr

I'm going to go off beam and out into non LDS territory .

When I was a missionary I was discussing Satan with another missionary and he said that maybe part of the whole plan (life, fall, death, atonement etc..) was to redeem Satan and the lost host of heaven as well as us - after all we are all children of God (in LDS world) and we have an interesting concept that whatever sins you don't repent of you must pay for anyway in a Gethsemane type experience (ie Jesus did it so we don't have to but the price still has to be paid if we don't accept Jesus.) There is also the teaching that Eternal punishment and Endless punishment actually refer to God's name so it could be read God's punishment - basically it lasts until the price is paid and then it ends - a bit like King David's experience. So there is potentially more going on in the whole scheme of things than a surface reading permits.

...returns to the LDS safe house and removes his hat of speculation.

Qcmbr

Guys, I'd love to answer more but I gotta go to General Conference broadcast ! I'll talk again sometime later tonight. bye

Does "J" deal with imperfection?

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