Hi! Some of you may remember me, Seeker4, from several hundred posts 3 to 6 years ago. I recognize some of the names in today's forums, and maybe some of you remember me. Don't confuse me with Seeker - I'm S4.
I haven't been very active here. Life goes on, and I've been busy. A couple of quick reminders - I was a JW for about 30 years. Served as a MS, then as an elder for about 13 years, pioneered for more than a decade, was an assembly overseer, pioneer school instructor, spoke at dozens of conventions and assemblies, etc. etc. etc.
I'm at this moment facing a judicial hearing - though I've been out of the Witnesses for pretty close to a decade. I want to give a little background on the situation and see what you folks might have to say about this, and whether legal action might be an option here.
I stepped down over a decade ago as an elder, and starting in 1994 began to seriously doubt the WTS teachings, that being greatly influenced by the 1914 generation change, among other problems I had with JW teachings. I never went out in field service again after that change in 1994. By 1995 I was no longer a believer, and had begun to greatly curtail my meeting attendance. I would say that it has been at least 7, if not 8 years since I've attended meetings, and just about that long since I've gone even to a Memorial. I specifically stopped attending the Memorial at that time to make a statement. My god, anyone with a shred of belief comes out of the woodwork to attend the Memorial. Not going says tons about not believing.
During the past decade I've frequently written articles (I'm a professional journalist) in which I've made statements that I'm not a Christian, that I'm a non-believer, a skeptic and an atheist. I'm the editor of a weekly paper with about 100,000 readers, and several articles over the past 3 years for this paper have made reference to this. I also do a monthly interview feature for a statewide magazine, and in several of those interviews I've referred to myself as a non-believer, and in at least one case, the interview included a lengthy conversation in which I discussed leaving the JWs with a man who was a newspaper editor but left that to become a minister.
For at least 6 or 7 years the elders have pretty much left me alone. I'd get an occasional Memorial invite, but that was about it. In the early years when I stopped attending meetings, I met with several elders and a CO on several seperate occasions about why I wasn't attending, and made it clear to them that I no was no longer a believer in the WTS or the Bible, and that I was an atheist.
About 6 months ago my wife and I seperated. She is still a JW, as are my mother, a daughter, two grandchildren and a son-in-law. I've been living for 6 months with another woman, though still married. My wife and I are filing for divorce.
Two weeks ago an elder (a friend since we were pre-teens) and the current CO, came by my new home on a Saturday morning. They were of course, concerned about my living arrangements, and essentially invited me to disassociate myself. I told them that I viewed the entire disfellowshipping/disassociation/shunning arrangement as dispicable, that I felt it was the way that religion tried to keep power over people,and that I refused to go along with it in any way. I said I wouldn't disassociate myself from the JWs and be a part of that arrangement, and that in reality I hadn't considered myself a Witness for over a decade. I told them about what I had written, as mentioned above, and that I was no longer viewed in my community (town of about 3500, where most know me as a writer and not as a JW) as a Witness.
They disagreed. I said that the WTS policy had been that anyone who was no longer viewed as a JW, and had not been associated for several years, could simply be left alone until such a time as I desired to be reinstated (not too damn likely!!). They disagreed, saying that because I was so prominent in the Organization for so long, and had influenced so many people, that they had to take action, even though I'd been out for going on a decade.
I heard nothing for a few weeks, until yesterday when two elders invited me to a judicial meeting. I let them have it, saying I didn't feel this was in harmony with WTS policy, and that it seemed like harrassment to me. I told them that everyone I'd mentioned this too just couldn't believe that the JWs were doing this, and that it sounded like I'd been involved in a cult. I told the elders that the JWs already had enough problems with their image, and that this sort of action just made it worse.
I told them to give me a couple of days to think if I wanted to attend the judicial hearing. Now, I could care less if I was disfellowshipped or not, it makes about as much difference to me as finding out I'd been kicked out of the Mormon Church! BUT, it will mean even more problems with my JW relatives, mentioned above, who are already having enough problems with me leaving my wife. The DFing would just complicate an already complicated issue, and again, I have to say, I HATE the whole dfing/disasscting/shunning arrangement.
So, the question is, should I seek a lawyer who might take this on as a harrassment issue? I've got a substantial amount of evidence that I've gone public in a serious way making clear that I'm not a JW or a believer in any way. Could this be viewed as harrassment by the congregation? I'm pissed that they've decided to pursue this, and I don't feel like being a fucking sheep any longer.
At the same time, this is complicated by the fact that these two elders were, for decades, two of my closest friends. My wife told me that one of them went home and cried last night after talking with me. Any thoughts on that? I didn't think this would hit me quite so hard emotionally. I've really been gone a long time from the JWs - but the emotional/psychological toll is very evident.
Any comments??
S4
Seeker4 Facing DFing - Seeks advice!! Lawyer??
by Seeker4 44 Replies latest jw friends
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Seeker4
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Seeker4
Sooooo sorry!! Why in hell does it submit this as one paragraph!!!! I did not write like that. My apologies. S4
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blondie
Oh, I see you fixed it.
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Bryan
Wow,
I don't know. I am not at all a law expert. I just wanted to say hello and hope you can take this on in some way.
My wife told me that one of them went home and cried last night after talking with me.
Brainwashing to the max!
Please try and keep your peace while you are being attacked.
Could this be the "House Cleaning" we have been speculating about?
Bryan
Have You Seen My Mother
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Pwned
i would think that just by your actions they could make an announcement, i'm not sure why they want to meet with you, thye're out of touch.
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blondie
If you had moved to another area way outside the area controlled by the congregation you once attended, I could see you slipping by.
But since you seem to live in the same cmmunity...
You have announced that you do not consider yourself a JW in print and to 2 elders at the same time...
And you are living with a woman not your wife (while you are still legally married to another) under the same roof (past 2 am) which proves you have having sex with her...
I see the separation from your wife and moving in with this woman being the key factor in their pursuing this with you although you have not attended for some time.
I can sympathize since I am a fader myself and could be facing a similar situation if there were ever written proof of my disavoing my JW status or moving in with a man I wasn't married to.
Do you have a legal case? I highly doubt it. Unless you can prove that you did not understand what would result from verbally stating you are not a JW or moving in with someone you are not married to...
Most JWs are clear on that point, that without proving to the elders that you are sorry you did these things, will do them no longer, DFing is the result.
The US is quite clear on the separation of church and state and lets religions do pretty much what they want to except, murder, molest, and cheat people out of their money...but even that happens.
Others might have a different opinion that's true and maybe they have some practical points I don't know of.
I would ask myself, whose friendship would I lose that would matter to me? Would they still have contact with me in spite of the WTS sanction?
Love, Blondie, who remembers S4 and his articles on osarif
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kwintestal
From the elders manual:
Baptized persons who have not associated for some time.
If you learn of serious wrongdoing on the part of such a
person, the matter should be investigated if it poses a
threat to the congregation's cleanness and welfare or caus-
es a public scandal.Consider the following:
Does he still profess to be a Witness?
Is he generally recognized as such in the congrega-
tion and/or t e community?Does the person have a measure of contact or
association with the congregation so that a leaven-
ing, or corrupting, influence exists?How did the matter become known to the elders?
UNIT 5 (a)
99
Is the person willing to meet with a committee,
thus admitting accountability to the Christian con-
gregation?Depending upon length of inactivity and other factors
suggested above, elders may determine to hold the
matter in abeyance.In such a case, a record of the person's questionable
conduct should be made for the congregation file so
that everything noted might be clarified when the
person shows interest in becoming active again.If the sinful conduct is known only to believing family
members and no congregation action is taken because
of the factors outlined above, believing relatives will
likely determine to curtail family association severely,
viewing the relative as bad association. ( I Cor. 15:33)If the individual still professes to be a Witness and is
willing to meet with the judicial committee, the matter
should be handled in the normal way. However, when
factors such as possible legal action exist, it is best to
consult the Society before proceeding. (w87 9/1 p. 14)Kwin
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nicolaou
I'm no lawyer either but how about hitting them with a notice to 'Cease and Desist'?
Address: Line 1
Address: Line 2
Address: Line 3
Address: Line 4Tel:
Fax:
EmailTO:
DATED:
OF:
Take note.
I am requesting that you personally and the elders from the [your local] Congregation of Jehovah?s Witnesses collectively, cease and desist from calling on me anymore.
I would like to make it clear that I am in no way disassociating myself from any congregation, office or organization associated with Jehovah?s Witnesses. I know that I have legal rights. I am fully aware of the possibility of illegalities occurring and wish to prevent them.
I have the right to not have mental suffering intentionally inflicted upon me. I have the right to privacy and not to have publicity of any kind given to private information about me. And I have the right to be free from unwarranted and untruthful attacks upon my character. If you infringe upon these rights, I may take legal action.
I will consider any attempt to convince by speeches, talks or teaching; to coerce by implied or actual threat of judicial action; or to encourage by private counsel or suggestion to any of Jehovah?s Witnesses to treat me differently from any other person, to be a serious violation of my civil rights and I may initiate any legal action, civil or criminal that I or my solicitor deem appropriate. This includes any attempt to convince by speeches, talks or teaching; to coerce by implied or actual threat of judicial action; or to encourage by private counsel or suggestion to any of Jehovah?s Witnesses to shun, ?mark? or avoid me, cease or otherwise modify their doing business with me, or modify in any way their behavior towards me. I may consider any such to be an infringement upon my civil and human rights and may initiate appropriate legal action.
This request to cease and desist from harassment, stalking, slandering, and/or infringing on my rights includes any actions to be taken by any congregation of Jehovah?s Witnesses and particularly the [your local] Congregation of Jehovah?s Witnesses it?s individual elders or it?s legal corporation, the Governing Body of Jehovah?s Witnesses or it?s legal corporations, The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc., The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, Inc., The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of Great Britain., the International Bible Students Association, or any other agency not here named, including all or any agents or assignees against me.
You have been warned.
Mr/Ms/Mrs [your name]
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candidlynuts
hi S4,
the threatening letter posted above might make them back off.
but your estranged wife may be pressuring them and they may go ahead and do it to keep her happy.
good luck.. i'd be vocal about it to everyone i could be if i were you anyway.
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garybuss
The Witness people started to shun me after I had not been assoicating for 18 years. At first I was shocked but it turned out to be the best day of my life. I decided to let the chips fall where they may and get it all in the rear view mirror. As long as the Witness people had control of something I didn't want to loose, they still had control of me. I wanted complete freedom from that control. I decided any Witness who would shun me, I didn't want in my life. The shunners don't deserve a place in my life.
I actually invited the elders and any interested Witness to meet with me at a public forum. None showed up. I guess they're like vampires, they don't show up in the light of day.
Today I can't even name the Witness people associated when I did 31 years ago. None of them bother me today. Witness relatives rejected me and that was their personal choice. With that attitude, I'm better off without them. I have a great non-Witness family and a grandson who gives me sloppy kisses. I'm not missing anything.
I'd consider getting an attorney if the Witness people decided to quit shunning and snubbing me.