Seeker4 Facing DFing - Seeks advice!! Lawyer??

by Seeker4 44 Replies latest jw friends

rebel8

I wonder if it might be worth a shot to complain to the UN Human Rights Commission. Has anyone tried that before?

http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html

Article 12.

No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.
How to file a complaint: http://www.unhchr.ch/html/hchr/contact.htm
I haven?t read over all the documents on their site and don?t really know much about it. Was just wondering if it might be worthwhile to pursue this option, if not to impose legal penalties, perhaps to bring attention and pressure to the outlandish shunning policy.
I imagine if anyone wanted to pursue such a complaint, it may be helpful to hire someone experienced (attorney?) to assist in drafting a thorough and credible complaint.
Dismembered

Seeker4,
This helped me to figure out what I would do if that happens to me.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/27437/351337/post.ashx#351337
Dismembered
"Don't you go dyin' on me now"
Seeker4

Thanks for all the support on this. And especially nice to hear from some old friends.

A couple of points. My wife is not pressuring the elders on this, and this is not a personal thing on the part of the elders. It may be because of the pressure from the current CO, who seems kind of gung-ho.

Perhaps the best advice here is to combine the direction from the WTS in the elder's manual with a threat to personally hold this body of elders responsible, showing that they are stepping outside the directions of the WTS to the elders. That description from the elder's manual fits me to a T. I've got a lot ofdocumentation showing the public statements I've made in print that I'm no longer a Witness. On a site I looked at last night, the Society's lawyers wrote that one of the few grounds for successful legal action against them is when the elder's fail to follow "theocratic procedure" (a silly phrase some former elders will remember!) , and in pursuing me after I've been gone for so long, I think a case can be made that the Society's direction on this is to leave it alone.

I won't meet with the JC, and I fully understand that they have no real power over me. I'm doing this simply because of the several family members who are JWs and how this will complicate the situation. I'm also doing it because I see this as bullying on the part of the JWs.

Will write more later about this.
S4
Spook

I met with the local elders on Saturday, made it clear to them I flatly disagree with most of the WTS teachings and the bible, and that I accept evolution. I also made it clear in my communication to them that I have respect for the organization (on the level of appreciating the intention and hard work of the people involved) and that the congregation's spirituality is safe in my hands.
It surpirised me that they found that I did not need to be DF'd, and did not need to DA myself. I think that the operative attitude is that they have to be sure you don't *oppose* the organization. I made it clear that in the grand scheme of things, I don't find the WTBTS any better or worse than other mainstream religions. They have some good qualities, and some bad ones.
I've also found that my family and friends are very comfortable with this arrangement. They know I've exercised respect and dilligence through their channels of authority. I've even made the offer to talk with the GB about my research and conclusions. They are confident that their dreams are safe in my hands.
That said, if you threaten a lawsuit, you may be able to convince them to not take action, but you will lose most of the reasons you are hanging on to in the process. I would recommend that you take an approach of clearing up the specific issues that they are concerned about, and help them to see that their dreams are safe with you.
From an atheistic point of view, arguements have raged for centuries. The approach of debate does not work in the ecological scale of human relations. Learn from Ghandi. Conflict produces more conflict. BE the possibility you want to see in the world. I chose to be the possibility for tolerance and acceptance between religious and nonreligious groups.
Best wishes
rebel8

They disagreed, saying that because I was so prominent in the Organization for so long, and had influenced so many people, that they had to take action, even though I'd been out for going on a decade.

Just a little sidebar on this issue. The elders in this situation are apparently trying to claim that they must DF--despite the long lack of association and lack of any public identity as a JW--to "keep reproach away from the cong" no doubt. They fear the prominence the OP once held in the cong requires a public removal of him from it.
This is just so ridiculous. They never tell the media someone is DFd, do they? So what's the reproach that is exactly being spared here?
If the OP gets DFd to keep the public's view of dubs "clean", then it should follow that they would announce this to the media in order to accomplish the stated purpose. (Likewise, they should DF Michael Jackson and announce that to the media.)
Obviously, the real purpose for DFing in cases like this is not to save the cong from reproach at all.
IT Support

Hi Seeker4,
If the CO's pressuring the elders, might it be useful to include him in the threatened lawsuit?
Similar to rebel8, I've also wondered what is the situation regarding human rights.
However, rather than filing a complaint under Article 12, I wondered about Article 18:
*** g98 11/22 pp. 9-10 Human Rights and Wrongs Today ***
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion. ?Article 18. [of the UDHR]
Of course, WT has often sought to rely on these rights when various governments have objected to WT activities in their countries, and have claimed the right to be registered and to proselytise in their exercise of their "freedom of religion."
What they have conveniently forgotten, however, is that these rights work both ways: the 'freedom to change your religion or belief' applies not only to those to whom JWs preach, but also to those of their members wishing to leave the Jehovah's Witness religion .
I'd be interested whether such an approach might work...
funkyderek

Seeker4, I doubt a lawyer could do much for you. You have stated you no longer consider yourself a JW. If the elders announce that you are no longer a JW, how have they defamed you? The best defence I've seen is the following letter from DocBob. Most likely, they'll decide it's so much hassle to deal with you that they'll let it slide.
I have decided that I will not formally disassociate myself from the P________ Congregation of Jehovah?s Witnesses or from Jehovah?s Witnesses in general. I came to this decision for several reasons. First, there is nothing I see in the Bible that calls for a formal letter of disassociation in my situation, or any other. It seems to me that the provision of formal disassociation is a matter of convenience for the legal department of the Watchtower Society rather than serv-ing any real religious purpose. It allows people to be pigeon-holed into nice neat little categories rather than dealing with the real issues involved. Also, I have no problem with the P________ Congregation or its members. My disagreement is with certain actions, policies, teachings and writings contained in pub-lications that are produced and in oral teachings promulgated either individually or collectively by the Governing Body of Jehovah?s Witnesses and it?s legal corporations, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, Inc. and the International Bible Students Association.
The purpose of this letter is to clarify certain matters and to secure and protect what I consider basic human rights in dealing with agents of the multi-national, multi-billion dollar Watchtower corporations. Since you have asked me to appear before a judicial committee to face charges of apostacy, there are a few things that I must ask for and which I feel must be clarified before I will even consider meeting with a judicial committee.
1. I shall be notified in writing of the time, place and purpose of any meetings with a judicial committee.
2. I shall be notified in writing of the exact purpose of the meetings.
3. I shall be notified in writing exactly on whose behalf the judicial committee was convened and is acting: the P________ Congregation of Jehovah?s Witnesses or its legal corporation the P________ Company of Jehovah?s Witnesses, the Govern-ing Body of Jehovah?s Witnesses or its legal corporations, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, Inc., the International Bible Students Association or any other agency not here named.
4. If any other agency other than the one for whom the judicial committee has informed me they are acting for is consulted, reported to, or allowed to have any bearing on the outcome of the judicial process, I will consider the judicial committee as acting in the their behalf.
5. I shall be notified in writing as to my status as a member of any and all of the organizations for which the committee is acting or to which the committee will report.
6. I insist that the judicial committee immediately cease, and in the future desist from any actions toward or against me in behalf of any corporation or or-ganization of which I am not a member.
7. I shall be notified in writing of any accusations against me, the names of persons making such accusations and the substance of any evidence against me.
8. I shall be notified in writing of any and all of my rights and responsibili-ties involved in the judicial process.
9. I shall be given sufficient time between notification of any meetings with a judicial committee and the time of the actual meeting to prepare a response to any accusations.
10. I shall be allowed to have one person of my choice present during all meetings between me and the judicial committee as an observer. Since I think there is good reason to believe that the judicial committee may consult with one or more lawyers, specifically those employed by the Legal Department of Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Incorporated, the person of my choice may also be a lawyer.
11. During the meetings with the judicial committee I and/or my observer will be allowed to take whatever notes we feel are necessary.
Additionally, if the judicial committee takes any judicial action against me :
12. I will not recognize any action taken by the judicial committee as valid unless it is communicated to me in writing, stating the exact nature and reason for the action.
13. In this written communication the judicial committee must state exactly on whose behalf they have taken the action, specifically the P________ Congregation of Jehovah?s Witnesses or its legal corporation the P________ Company of Jeho-vah?s Witnesses, the Governing Body of Jehovah?s Witnesses or its legal corporations, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, Inc., the International Bible Students Association or any other agency not here named.
14. If the judicial committee has stated that it is acting only for the P________ Congregation of Jehovah?s Witnesses, it is enjoined from notifying any agency outside the congregation of their action. If the judicial committee or anyone acting in their behalf notifies of reports to anyone outside the P________ Congregation of Jehovah?s Witnesses, I may take any appropriate legal action.
15. I may appeal any action taken by the judicial committee.
16. Before I will meet with an appeal committee, that committee must notify me in writing of the names of all of the members of the appeal committee and who each one represents: the P________ Congregation of Jehovah?s Witnesses or its legal corporation the P________ Company of Jehovah?s Witnesses, the Governing Body of Jehovah?s Witnesses or it?s legal corporations, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of
Pennsylvania, Inc., the International Bible Students Association or any other agency not here named.
17. There shall be no contact between the judicial committee and the appeal committee other than to inform them of the time and place of my meetings with them. If I determine that there is any contact, communication or attempt on the part of any of the members of the original judicial committee or anyone acting on their behalf to, in any way prejudice or sway the appeal committee, I will insist that a new appeal committee be formed.
18. I shall be notified in writing of any and all of my rights and responsibilities involved in the appeal process.
19. I shall be allowed to have one person of my choice present during the all meetings between me and the appeal committee. Since I think there is good reason to believe that the appeal committee may consult with one or more lawyers, spe-cifically those employed by the Legal Department of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Incorporated, the person of my choice may also be a lawyer.
20. During the meetings with the appeal committee I and/or my observer will take whatever notes we feel are necessary.
21. I will not recognize any action taken by the appeal committee as valid unless it is communicated to me in writing, stating the exact nature and reason for the action.
22. In this written communication the appeal committee must state exactly on whose behalf they are taking the action, specifically the P________ Congregation of Jehovah?s Witnesses or its legal corporation the P________ Company of Jeho-vah?s Witnesses, the Governing Body of Jehovah?s Witnesses or its legal corpora-tions, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, Inc., the International Bible Students Association or any other agency not here named.
23. If the appeal committee has stated that it is acting only for the P________ Congregation of Jehovah?s Witnesses, it is enjoined from notifying any agency outside the congregation of their action. If the appeal committee or anyone acting in their behalf notifies or reports to anyone outside the P________ Con-gregation of Jehovah?s Witnesses, I may take any appropriate legal action.
24. I understand that if I am disfellowshipped by the judicial committee and the disfellowshipping is upheld by the appeal committee that I am, at that point, no longer considered to be one of Jehovah?s Witnesses. I also understand that it is necessary to make a brief announcement that I have been disfellowshipped. From then on, I will consider any attempt to convince by speeches, talks or teaching;
to coerce by implied or actual threat of similar judicial action; or to encourage by private counsel or suggestion any of Jehovah?s Witnesses to treat me dif-ferently from any other person that is not one of Jehovah?s Witnesses to be a serious violation of my civil rights and I may initiate any legal action, civil or criminal that I deem appropriate. This includes any attempt to convince by speeches, talks or teaching; to coerce by implied or actual threat of similar judicial action; or to encourage by private counsel or suggestion any present Jehovah?s Witnesses to shun or avoid me, cease or otherwise modify their doing business with me, or terminate or otherwise abrogate any lease, rental, mortgage, or any other legal agreement that I may presently have with them. I may consider such to be an infringement of free trade and may initiate appropriate legal action.
25. I consider any communication between the members of the judicial committee and myself and the appeal committee and myself to be ecclesiastically privileged. Any attempt to reveal the substance or tone of those communications to any other person or group will be considered by me to be a breach of that privi-lege and may result in legal action. This includes any announcements beyond the fact of my disfellowshipping, speeches, talks, or any other communication, writ-ten or oral, public or private.
I fully realize that you may be unwilling or that the Watchtower corporations will not allow you to comply with the preceding. I respectfully await your writ-ten response.
From http://www.docbob.org/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=6
(edited to add URL)
Doubtfully Yours

S4,
Just own up to your actions, whatever the outcome, and move on with your life.
DY
Seeker4

Doubtfully Yours, and others,

I've never denied my actions, so that's hardly the point. Two elders visited me in my new home, and there's no doubt I'm living with a woman who is not my wife.

End of that story.

My concern is, how long do you have to be out of the Org before they'll leave you alone? In some ways being DFd would just be a relief but this feeling that they still have some kind of control over people's lives years after they've left is one of the things I most disagree with about the Witnesses, and I wouldn't mind challenging that.

People often feel powerless when faced with a JC, and I know for certain that it often gives the elders a sense of power - too often unchallenged power.

As much as anything, this is an experiment.

Also, thanks for the Doc Bob letter reference. I know Doc B and am familiar with his leter. It's helpful though in my case the charge is adultery, not apostasy

S4
Fleur

"My concern is, how long do you have to be out of the Org before they'll leave you alone? "
Seeker4, I hate to tell you this but I haven't heard of any statute of limitations. It doesn't matter how long you're out. It can be years and years and then they decide for whatever reason to lower the boom.
My best advice is...brace for impact, and take what is coming. Then get out there and live, and don't look back. At least, look back as little as you possibly can.
hugs,
Essie

Seeker4 Facing DFing - Seeks advice!! Lawyer??

Article 12.

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