John Doe
I admire them for standing up for their beliefs--I wish more people would.
I think we need to draw distinctions here. I don't believe for a minute you mean you wish more facists would stand up for their beliefs. One might want them to have the right to, fine, but I don't think you wish to hear more facist propoganda.
Some beliefs are wrong. Facists. Offending paedophiles who believe there's nothing wrong with what they do. That you can drive after eight beers.
Now, one might allow for the expression of such wrong beliefs, but how can you admire morons and criminals for supporting idiotcy and ruin of others lives?
- Jehovah's Witnesses believe a child should die for want of a blood transfusion.
Obvious idiotcy and obvious harm. Is the creator of the Universe really going to prefer children die? What point does that prove exactly? Isn't it a little petty? If god is petty doesn't that make it sound like a characteristic a human (notoriously petty humans are) made up?
- Jehovah's Witnesses believe that you should devote your life to preaching and serving Jehovah as Armagedon is a coming. Honest. Any generation now. I bet you it'll be like buses when it does happen. You wait ages and then three come along all at the same time.
Well, they might be right.
If they are not they are making people give up on opportunities they will regret passing up if they are not right, like every JW over the age of fifty who's been in their entire love does (if they are like the majoriy of 'lifers' who I have known).
They might say the right things, about how greatful they are for the life they have lead, blah-dey, blah-da...
But ask yourself; if they had been in a religion where they could have taken full advantage of any opportunities they have, still been in good standing, and still been in a religious community they drew comfort from and enjoyed, wouldn't they be happier?
No hidden bitterness over janitorial lives waiting for something in their life-time.
So, a pointless, harmful belief that actually takes AWAY from peoples lives.... is that admirable?
And those are just two things...
The heavy level of social control most Jehovah's Witnesses experience in their lives (when contrasted with more 'main-stream religions' as practised today in the West) means there are numerous areas where JW's are disadvantaged due to doctrinal beliefs.
Unless one accepts these beliefs are right, there really isn't that much to admire about standing up for nonsence. There are so many good things one can stand up for; some of them are even mentioned in the Bible.
Of course, I think most people feel inadequate,
Define most.
but the high expectations of Jehovah's Witnesses only exacerbates this feeling when many members inevitably fail to live up to their goals.
It is one of the identifying characteristics of a high control group. They use guilt as a method of social control in the congregations.
But, is it better to have goals too high, or to have none so we'll never fail?
This is called an excluded middle. You are suggesting that there are two possibilities;
1/ Goals that cannot be met
2/ No goals.
There is obviously a middle ground. One of the things that we have learnt getting out of a cult is that simplistic, black & white or excluded middle arguments are generally false. There is, in most situations, a middle ground between the two poles. As cultists we are taught to present things in a monochromatic fashion as it forces people to accept one of two extremes (which can then be used to make them accept further things), when in fact the 'truth' is inbetween the two extremes.
I believe the former is better, but herein lies the conflict. When goals run contrary to what a person believes, then beliefe must change. Mine have.
So, it your goal is a happy life, and your beliefs don't give you a happy life, then you must change your beliefs? Hmmmmm....
I would argue that one's goals are a product of one's beliefs.
If one believes Jehovah is going to kill billions of people very soon, one will have a set of goals dictated by that belief.
If one believes that it is unthinkable that a creator be as petty and human as the depiction in the Old Testament (for example) would have us believe, and that we are not in some 'end time' count down, then ones goals will not be the same.
Well, guys, I've spent some time reading the posts here, and I'm highly bothered by the negativity I'm feeling. A common theme seems to be that the Witnesses exert too much control over members.
Do you feel they don't?
In answering, please take into account that in the Congregation the elders will generally seek to control;
- Social activities
- Facial hair of males
- Clothing worn
- Who should not be spoken to
- Career choice
- Educational choice
- Car choice
- TV programs viewed
- Reading material
- Speculation about doctrine
- Voting rights
- Leisure activities
- Medical treatment
- To enforce their wishes they may reprove someone publically,
- disfellowship them,
- or use these threats to ensure compliance.
... and compare the above (incomplete) list with the level of control applied to most religious adherants in the West today.
The comparison with main-stream religions will allow you to determnine an 'average' level of conrol, and therefore draw a supported conclusion about whether or not JW's exert a higher level of control. You may then try to justify why this level of control is neccesary.
Interestingly, do you think you're not being controlled by your incessant hatred on this site? Why not let things go?
AH, I think you mean we should hurry up and get better... LOL.
First of all, you are approaching this from the opinion that "Jehovah's Witnesses are just another religion", I think. It is how I viewed them when I first left (like you I faded and avoided Dfing). This means you don't see WHY people might be seriously affected by their contact with Witnesses, or want to have contact with those who have shared experieneces, or who might want to help those who are just getting out.
Instead of seeing the web of need, support, and comfort provided by this place you only see hate. Gee, thanks...
Your assumption that there is nothing to criticise the for Witnesses blinds you.
Would you say the same thing about a discussion board for people recovering from contact with Moonies? Mormons? Scientologists? Would you say that about a discussion board helping those who were abused?
Would the harm done to those people, the needs they have to recover, and the help that those with similar experiences could give be dismissed in the way you dismiss it here?
Would rightful anger directed against people and an Organsiation that had adversely affected people's lives be dismissed out-of-hand as you do here?
So people who were abused, but whose abuse was covered up by bodies of elkders, they should keep quiet and not be hurt and angry? They shouldn't hate what was done to them in the name of god?
So people who were in congregations were a persistant double standard applied depending whether one was related to an elder or not, they shouldn't hate such hypocracy?
Where do you get off telling people who have been harmed that they shouldn't feel negatively towards those that did them harm?
Would you do this to victims of abuse on another board? Or is it only criticism of JW's that you oppose?
If you are no longer a Witness, why are you defending them?
Looking back I honestly don't know why for maybe eighteen months or two years I said very similar things to what you say now. Habit maybe?
It was only later, as I subjected the Society's doctrines, Biblical exegesis, organisational history, impact on members, similarities to other groups, etc., that I realised they were NOT just another religion.
Here's what I think. I think everyone here (including myself) feels inadequate.
I read loud and clear that you feel inadequate. I read loud and clear you project that emotion on others. Have you asked yourself why you feel inadequate and why you project this emotion on others?
I think many here resent Witnesses because they were made to feel inadequate.
As already mentioned, this is a characteristic technique of a high-control group.
But, I don't think blaiming the Witnesses for feelings of inadequacy is fair. No friends, that feeling of inadequacy will be present no matter your course in life.
My, don't we project! It's a bit like Freud; he wanted to *cough* his mother, therefore EVERY male must want to *cough* his mother.
I think people become Witnesses from a deep-seated dissonance of the world and all that's wrong with the world.
Sometimes. Others are born into it, or come in contact during a time of crisis where the simplistic black/white presentation of reality and promise of relief from suffering draw them in.
We are much too easily pessimistic. Why do you think the Utopia of paradise was so appealing?
I was born in, so it wasn't 'appealing', it was a 'normal' belief, as it would be to any other Witness child. But what part of wanting to live in utopia don't you understand?
That's the core problem methinks.
Oh, I thought the core problem was that JW's are a damaging cult. I didn't think it was the fault of those who fell victim to it...
We must learn to be happy with our surroundings.
Your assumption is we are not. Why not ask us?
We must learn to look for the good in people rather than the bad.
So, are you saying we don't? Projection AND sweeping statements!
Don't you realise that one of the experiences of exiting a cult is learning to see the good in people that don't conform to a prescriptive and elitist definiton of 'good'.
Why don't you start with US, as you seem to be seeing the bad in us, not the good.
I implore you, don't hate. If you feel bitter towards Witnesses, try to think of the better understanding you now have of human nature that you wouldn't have gained without them.
Oh, yes, and you can find comments here about what people feel they gained, if you bother to look for them.
However, I would rather have been raised by my parents if they had not been Witnesses. I would gladly have learnt to speak in public without nerves another way. I would gladly have learnt to use my head (which I did in getting out of the cult) by being encouraged to pursue education, as I know from my experience in University in my 30's I really lost out by being disuaded from Higher Education when a teenager.
Why don't you accept that people have a complete right to feel bitter towards the Witnesses, as do ex-Moonies have a right to feel bitter towards their former church, as ex-scientologists have a right to feel bitter towards their former church, as victims of abusers have the right to feel bitter toward their abusers?
Is it that you are desperately trying to salvage SOMETHING from your association with JW's, and are trying to miminise the awsome waste of time that it was? And in doing so you lose sight of the damage JW's beliefs and organsiation structure can do to peoples lives?
Open yourself to other possibilities. Don't diss your former friends for not being perfect.
Of course, perfection is not possible. Who said it was? Is it a fair characterisation of the attitude of people here that they "diss ... former friends for not being perfect". If it is, as you have studied what people write here so extensively, you will be able to give examples.
I always got the idea that most dissing was done of THE ORGANSIATION, THE DOCTRINES, and of those within it whose adherence to organisational law prevented them acting in a loving or decent way toward their fellow man.
But I'll just wait until you give me examples in sufficient quantity to show you are right.
Remember, they're exerting just as much effort to be happy as you are.
They are? I think the difference is between a rat in a wheel and a human on a road. At least now when we exert effort to be happy we get somewhere.
While it may feel they hate you--they don't.
Another sweeping statement! Some do, some really do.
They're petrified of your new beliefs.
Well, for a start, we all have our OWN new beliefs, and I can't see how they can be petrified of a diverse set of beliefs, most of which they don't know of.
No, they are trained to refuse to listen to or engage intellectually in the analysis of other beliefs. They are trained to feel the world is demon controlled and dangerous and that a room of old men in NYC is the only sure way of getting an idea of what god wants.
They still want to help you, but they don't know how.
Help? Hahahaha. No, they don't want to help us. They want us to be like them; they see this as help.
Seems to me John, in your defence of Jehovah's Witnesses and criticism of former members you actually contradict yourself. You ask us to see the good in people when you haven't even looked for the good in us. If you have, I find no trace of it in your comments.
You also ignore the difference between senseless unjustified criticism, disagreement, dislike and hate and justified criticism, disagreement, dislike and hate. Sometimes there is senseless criticism here, that is true. But if you have focused on that and not seen the jusitifed criticism you have made a very partial and biased study of the posts here.
But don't worry. If I had found this web site in the autumn of 1993 I would have probably done the same thing. To me, the stage you are going through is predictable and natural - and equally will pass as you move on to the next phase of recovery, unless there are internal factors within you that prevent you continuing in your recovery.
I don't know if you're yet to accept that you are actually in recovery, but all the best with it anyway. You've a great resource in the form of this board to help you, if you want help. At the least people will know what you're talking about.
