Job and the resurrection

by peacefulpete 31 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Often the WT claims that the writer of Job believed in the resurrection doctrine as espoused by the JWs. The usual verses lifted from context are 14:13-15 which says:

    13 "If only you would hide me in the grave [ b ]

    and conceal me till your anger has passed!

    If only you would set me a time

    and then remember me! 14 If a man dies, will he live again?

    All the days of my hard service

    I will wait for my renewal [c] to come.

    15 You will call and I will answer you;

    you will long for the creature your hands have made.

    Yet the chapter has much to say about death, lets look at the verses just before these and see what they say:

    7 "At least there is hope for a tree:

    If it is cut down, it will sprout again,

    and its new shoots will not fail.

    8 Its roots may grow old in the ground

    and its stump die in the soil,

    9 yet at the scent of water it will bud

    and put forth shoots like a plant.

    10 But man dies and is laid low;

    he breathes his last and is no more.

    11 As water disappears from the sea

    or a riverbed becomes parched and dry,

    12 so man lies down and does not rise;

    till the heavens are no more, men will not awake

    or be roused from their sleep.

    Clearly the writer did not believe in a resurrection. Other passages in Job mirror these sentiments:

    chapter 10: 20 Are not my few days almost over?

    Turn away from me so I can have a moment's joy

    21 before I go to the place of no return,

    to the land of gloom and deep shadow, [b]

    22 to the land of deepest night,

    of deep shadow and disorder,

    where even the light is like darkness."

    chapter 7: 8 The eye that now sees me will see me no longer;

    you will look for me, but I will be no more.

    9 As a cloud vanishes and is gone,

    so he who goes down to the grave [a] does not return.

    10 He will never come to his house again;

    his place will know him no more.

    Chapter 16 22 "Only a few years will pass

    before I go on the journey of no return.

    It appears the rhetorical questions in chapt 14 verse 13 and 14a is what has enabled the WT to misrepresent the book as teaching the resurrection doctrine. There the Job character asks if maybe, just maybe, God might hide him in the Netherworld of Sheol for a while until His anger has passed and thereafter remember that Job was a good guy. This is not any expression of conviction or doctrine only poetic exaggeration. The character's suffering is so great that he would prefer to be in the place he describes as," ...the land of gloom and deep shadow, [b] 22 to the land of deepest night, of deep shadow and disorder, where even the light is like darkness." (10:21,22)

    The rest of the book of Job makes very clear that the author/authors were not endorsing the resurrection teaching of Jws.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    I don't know why the format scrambled when I edited a typo, please struggle through.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Good post. To paraphrase the quotes you gave, in Job 14:1-14 the author declares that "there is hope for a tree if it is cut down, that it will sprout again," whereas "mortals lie down and do not rise again; until the heavens are no more, they will not awake or be roused out of their sleep". In Job 10:21, Sheol is called "the land of no return" and Job 7:7-10 says that "As the cloud fades and vanishes, so those who go down to Sheol do not come up". Another text with the same thought: "He will perish forever like his own dung; those who have seen him will say, 'Where is he?' Like a dream he flies away, no more to be found" (Job 20:7-8). Regarding the rhetorical question "If mortals die, will they live again?" in Job 14:14, N. T. Wright says: "The last question, clearly, expects the answer 'no', which is reinforced elsewhere in Job" (p. 97).

    The resurrection interpretation of Job 14 is partly invited by v. 14b-15: "All the days of my hard service I will wait for my renewal to come. You will call and I will answer you; you will long for the creature your hands have made". But this misses the point of the passage. In verse 12 the author declares that "man, once in his resting place, will never rise again", but from v. 13-17 the author temporarily entertains an alternative scenario (note the "if" in v. 13, this is a hypothetical situation), in which Yahweh only "hides" his servant in Sheol and would call for him later. But this idea is summarily dismissed in v. 18-20: "But no! Soon or late the mountain falls, the rock moves from its place... You destroy man's hope and you crush him once for all, and he is gone". Rather than presenting a hope for a future deliverance from death, this text argues for the exact opposite view. We can encounter other statements in the OT that there is no return from Sheol:

    "The living know at least that they will die, the dead know nothing; no more reward for them, the memory of them has vanished. Their loves, their hates, their jealousies have perished, nor will they ever again take part in whatever is done under the sun" (Ecclesiastes 9:5-6).
    "I will prepare them a drink and make them drink until they grow drowsy and fall into an everlasting sleep, never to wake up...They will fall into an everlasting sleep and not wake up" (Jeremiah 51:39, 57).

    Another text in Job which has traditionally been interpreted as a reference to the resurrection is Job 19:25-27: "For I know that my Redeemer lives, and that at the last he will stand upon the earth, and after my skin has been destroyed, then in my flesh I shall see God, whom I shall see on my side, and my eyes shall behold and not another" (NSRV). However, the text in this verse is corrupt. The NSRV admits that "in my flesh" could be read as "without my flesh" (which has the opposite meaning), and the NEB amends the text to read instead:

    "In my heart I know that my Vindicator lives, and that he will rise last to speak in court; and I shall discern my witness standing at my side and see my defending counsel, even God himself, whom I shall see with my own eyes, I myself and no other" (NEB).

    In view of the rest of the book, it is most unlikely that the author of Job suddenly suggests a hope of rescue from Sheol in ch. 19 (contrary to the view in ch. 7, 10, and 14), and then reverts back to pessimism in ch. 20 (cf. 20:7-8).

    N. T. Wright mentions that in the LXX, "the notion of the resurrection became, it seems, much clearer, so that many passages which might have been at most ambiguous became clear, and some which seemed to have nothing to do with resurrection might suddenly be given a hint, or more than a hint, in that direction" (p. 147). An example of this is the rhetorical question in Hosea 13:14. In the MT, God asks, "Shall I ransom them from the power of Sheol? Shall I redeem them from Death?" The expected answer of this question is "No", especially since Yahweh goes on to say "I have no eyes for pity". But the LXX transformed the rhetorical question into a positive statement: "I shall rescue (rhusomai) them from the hand of Hades, and I shall redeem (lutrosomai) them from Death". The same process occurred in some of the statements in Job. The rhetorical question in Job 14:14 is similarly turned into a bold promise: "If a man dies, he shall live (zésetai)". The uncertain passage from Job 19:26 considered above ("after my skin has been destroyed") has also been inverted into an explicit reference to the resurrection: "You will resurrect my skin (anastéseis tén sarka mou), which has endured all things". If that wasn't enough, the LXX inserted a postscript to the book after 42:17 which again made explicit reference to Job's future resurrection: "It is written of him that he will rise again with those whom the Lord will raise" (42:18, LXX). The evidence is thus quite clear that whoever translated Job into Greek subscribed to resurrection eschatology which was read back into the text of Job.

    Since the LXX was the translation used by early Christians, these mistranslated passages were picked up as OT prophecies of the resurrection. 1 Clement 26:1-3, for instance, reads: "How, then, can we consider it to be some great and marvelous thing, if the Creator of the universe shall bring about the resurrection (anastasin) of those who have served him in holiness....And again Job says: 'And you will raise this flesh of mine, which has endured all these things' ".

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    This creative translating of the LXX may in fact explain why the book was ever included into the Christian Canon.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Actually the early Christians were never very picky about the OT canon. That was mainly the problem of rabbinical Judaism (from Javneh on), which globally rejected the LXX (canon and translation).

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    I find it interesting how the Society latches onto Ecclesiastes 9:5 as a favorite proof-text, and yet ignores the very next verse which claims that a future restoration of life to the dead will not occur.

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    Pete

    This is the same reasoning that gives them the idea that Ecclesiastes 9:5 teaches there is no soul or spirit.

    Ecc 9:5

    For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten.

    Are we really just "Dust In The Wind" ?

    Ecc 3:20

    All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

    Ecc 3:21

    Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

    D Dog

  • Carmel
    Carmel

    Certaibnly casts a different light on the resurrection of Jesus!

    carmel

  • TheListener
    TheListener

    Wow. Excellent discussion. I love it when I can learn something about the scriptures that I didn't know from this discussion board. I could learn about the scriptures many places, but not with direct correlation to witness beliefs.

    Thanks

  • jula71
    jula71

    Peacefullpete, your not supposed to read the context, what?s wrong with you? Job is a pretty interesting book; here?s a thought, what of followers of God hold to local traditions and/or customs? Here?s what I mean, the book says that Job was the greatest of all the Orientals, what if his customs differed from Middle Eastern customs, where most of the Bible takes place? In the opening verses of Job it mentions Job celebrating birthdays with is children. This may explain his seemingly different opinion on the resurrection. Different location, different views but still a "faithful" one. Just me thinking??..

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