Why did Jesus make a reference to hell doctrine?

by cyborgVision 10 Replies latest jw friends

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  cyborgVision

  I personally do not, never have or ever will believe in hell. My religions feelings are littlebit hazy at the moment. But even when I did believe with all my heart I found it difficult to believe in a god that would promote some sort of perpetual concentration camp. However, to get back to my point, I find Jesus' words recorded in Luke 16:19-31 intriguing to say the least.

  I understand that bible is not really talking about hell as it is understood by most of churches of today's Christendom. On the other hand, Greeks and, as far as I know, some Jewish sects in first century did believe in principle at least in a form of Hades which is comparable to today's hell doctrine.

  I also understand that what Jesus was telling was only a fable, an illustration that was meant to make a point and can't be taken literally. Old Jewish religion, after all, did not recognize such doctrine prior to hellenization of Palestine at the time of Alexander the Great.

  My point is this, why would Jesus seemingly deliberately make a reference to a pagan doctrine to prove a point? And in process encourage them in thinking that is correct understanding.

  I'm not a religious expert, neither I want to engage in spirited argument (quarrel) about whether there's a hell or not (its beyond the point anyway). Rather, hope to get some positive feedback from those of you who had similar thoughts.
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  Narkissos

  Just because it was part of the apocalyptic set of beliefs in 1st-century Judaism.

  Leolaia has provided many references on this subject in various threads. I'll quote just one as a sample -- from 1 Enoch 103:

  1 But now I swear to you, righteous, by the greatness of his splendour and his glory; by his illustrious kingdom and by his majesty, to you I swear, that I comprehend this mystery; that I have read the tablet of heaven, have seen the writing of the holy ones, and have discovered what is written and impressed on it concerning you.

  2 I have seen that all goodness, joy, and glory has been prepared for you, and been written down for the spirits of them who die eminently righteous and good. To you it shall be given in return for your troubles; and your portion of happiness shall far exceed the portion of the living.

  3 The spirits of you who die in righteousness shall exist and rejoice. Their spirits shall exult; and their remembrance shall be before the face of the Mighty One from generation to generation. Nor shall they now fear disgrace.

  4 Woe to you, sinners, when you die in your sins; and they, who are like you, say respecting you, Blessed are these sinners. They have lived out their whole period; and now they die in happiness and in wealth. Distress and slaughter they knew not while alive; in honour they die; nor ever in their lifetime did judgment overtake them.

  5 But has it not been shown to them, that, when to the receptacle of the dead their souls shall be made to descend, their evil deeds shall become their greatest torment? Into darkness, into the snare, and into the flame, which shall burn to the great judgment, shall their spirits enter; and the great judgment shall take effect for ever and for ever.

  6 Woe to you; for to you there shall be no peace. Neither can you say to the righteous, and to the good who are alive, In the days of our trouble have we been afflicted; every manner of trouble have we seen, and many evil things have suffered.

  7 Our spirits have been consumed, lessened, and diminished.

  8 We have perished; nor has there been a possibility of help for us in word or in deed: we have found none, but have been tormented and destroyed.
• 

  love2Bworldly

  I have been struggling with this since I left the JW's. What puzzles me though is that the WBTS teaches hell is not literal, yet other things like the number 144,000 to go to heaven is taken literally.

  I do believe in God and the Bible, but I often feel that no one can really be sure of how prophecies are going to be fulfilled etc. Book of Revelation is a real puzzler, there is so much symbolism and yet it speaks of hellfire.

  I am praying that one day I will understand these things, but for the present I am unsure of my beliefs. Part of this is I am skeptical of anything after all the BS from the WBTS, that's the mark it has left on me is to be unsure of anything.
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  Dogpatch

  The most obvious answer is that Jesus believed it, according to the law of parsimony. Check out the debate at:

  http://www.freeminds.org/doctrine/hellcomp.htm

  The Bible is an ancient book with ancient beliefs. The Watchtower tries to dress it up as a modern worldview. Take the time and read the literature current in Jesus' day, such as the Talmud, Essenes, and later the gnostics and church fathers.

  Randy
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  jaffacake

  Why was the Watchtower Society started? My understanding is that it was because CT Russell refused to continue to believe in the doctrine of hell, which he thought would indicate God was neither loving or just. Perhaps we understand justice better than God does? Or even what is meant by Hell.

  My instinct suggests that perhaps if the Watchtower is so strongly against it, then the doctrine may be valid after all, at least in some form. I certainly have an open mind.

  Frankly, after 6 months of study, I'm not sure I've found a single WTS doctrine that is right, once you scratch below the surface, although I would like to be proved wrong.
• 

  jaffacake

  postscript

  Where is the book of Enoch?
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  Narkissos

  Jaffacake:

  Actually Russell did not invent the rejection of hell and immortality of the soul ; he directly borrowed that from 19th-century adventism.

  Edit: http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/1enoch.html (only the translation by Laurence works from this site).
• 

  Leolaia

  As Narkissos said, the concept of eternal punishment was an important ingredient in Jewish apocalyptic thinking. The usual scenario is that on Judgment Day, God or his divine agent would arrive to judge the world and to convict all flesh of the deeds they have done (cf. 1 Enoch 1:9, Jude 14-15). The dead would be resurrected, and all of humanity would be judged and divided into two groups: those rewarded eternally for their piety and good deeds and those punished eternally for their wickedness. In a number of sources, the blessed are rewarded with the delights of Paradise (which had been preserved in heaven, or specifically third heaven) while the wicked are sent to the tortures of Gehenna. Paradise is thought to be restored as New Jerusalem, and like the original Jerusalem, Gehenna lies outside its walls (cf. 2 Enoch, which places both Paradise and Gehenna in third heaven). Such a scenario is hinted at late OT sources such as Daniel and Isaiah 66, in apocalyptic works like 1 Enoch, 2 Baruch, 4 Ezra, and in the NT especially in Matthew, Jude, and Revelation. There are many variations on this idea, such as the concept of a world conflagration that precedes the final judgment (cf. Sibylline Oracles, 2 Peter, Apocalypse of Peter; compare 4 Ezra which expects that the world will return to its primeval state), or that the dead are already separated in their intermediate state (cf. 1 Enoch, Luke). The concept of the resurrection was very much bound up with this apocalyptic thinking; historically, the hope of a future resurrection was very important to martyred Jews who would not compromise the Law during the reign of Antiochus Epiphanes (cf. 2 Maccabees), and the hope was that they would be rewarded for their sacrifice and that their oppressors would pay for what they had done. Anyway, some streams of early Christianity (especially for those who hoped for a future bodily resurrection and those influenced by 1 Enoch such as Jude or the author of Revelation) certainly believed in concept of eternal punishment, while other streams of early Christianity did not emphasize the notion of divine judgment and punishment.

  BTW, Luke 16 is not about the eternal punishment that follows Judgment Day, it seems to describe the intermediate state of the dead during the present age.
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  Narkissos

  BTW, Luke 16 is not about the eternal punishment that follows Judgment Day, it seems to describe the intermediate state of the dead during the present age.

  Perhaps the distinction between intermediate and final states was not so important to those segments of Judaism, especially in the Hellenistic diaspora, which were less bent on futuristic scenarii than Palestinian apocalypticism. And Luke was probably closest to them.

  E.g. Testament of Asher 6 which clearly links the separation between eternal torment and bliss to the moment of death:

  Do ye, therefore, my children, keep the law of the Lord, and give not heed unto evil as unto good; but look unto the thing that is really good, and keep it in all 4 commandments of the Lord, having your conversation therein, and resting therein. For the latter ends of men do show their righteousness (or unrighteousness), when they meet the angels of the 5 Lord and of Satan. For when the soul departs troubled, it is tormented by the evil spirit which also it served in lusts and evil works. 6 But if he is peaceful with joy he meeteth the angel of peace, and he leadeth him into eternal life.
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  Leolaia

  Narkissos....The example from the Testament of Asher is certainly Platonic in conception; cf. the depiction of death as the "departure" of souls (psukhé aperkhetai) in 6:5, the separation of which is discussed in terms of "the ultimate end of human beings" (ta telétón anthrópón) in v. 4. Elsewhere in the Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs, there are references to the trampling of evil spirits after the defeat of Beliar and the opening of the gates of Paradise (cf. Testament of Levi 18:10-12), the future throwing of Beliar and his "spirit of error" into the "eternal fire" (Testament of Judah 25:3), etc. If the work had a Christian redactor (as many think), I suppose it is possible that the author may have had a realized eschatology which looks on these things in the past (with immediate reward or punishment for those who die), but I really haven't looked at this closely to say either way...