Hi Rado, I would appreciate your help with something. My wife was born in the JW religion but was never baptised. She is currently studying and is on the road to baptism. I am an atheist, and I have little comprehension of the bible. A few brothers came by a few weeks ago. I have always remained quiet about the issue until they came. They flat out told me that there was no way I could be a moral person if I was'nt a member of their organization. The final straw was when one of them told me that if I was alone with a beautiful naked woman and there was no one around I would cheat on my wife. Her study has called me a close associate of satan. I cannot keep quiet anymore. It has become clear to me they are a cult, there doctrines make them dangerous, and I will not let me children grow up exposed to thier teachings. I need to prove that they are wrong, to them, in front of my wife. I have spent a few weeks now reading the bible(not the nwt, only for reference) and have used some websites for guidance on key problems. My question is, what is the best way to prove this? I have found so much evidence in the past few weeks its overwhelming. The evidence keeps piling up, and I have a hard time keepng track of it all. Any suggestions on key points to work on? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.
Please help me prove the wts wrong
by gringojj 25 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Joyzabel
Welcome to the board.
Yes, there is a lot of information available now, especially online about Jehovah's Witnesses.
But being a JW or dealing with someone who is becoming a JW's combatting mind control.
Here is my list of recommended reading.
Crisis of Conscience Ray Franz
In Search of Christian Freedom Ray Franz
Gentile Times Revisited Carl Olof Jonnson
Living in the Last Days? Carl Olof Jonnson
Apocalypse Delayed James Penton
A Road Less Traveled M. Scott Peck, M.D.
Further Along A Road Less Traveled M. Scott Peck, M.D.
People of the Lie M. Scott Peck. M. D.
Combating Mind Control Steve Hassen
True Believer Eric Hoffer
The Myth of Certainty Daniel Taylor
The History of God Karen Armstrong
Let us know how things go. I hope you can reach your wife.
Joy
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Elsewhere
The fact that they do no believe a man can be faithful to his wife without their religion speaks volumes about their own character.
The bottom line is this: They admitted to you that the only reason they do not cheat on their wives is because they are forbidden to, otherwise they would.
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gringojj
Thanks guys, my question is where can i find a route to take as far as what part i argue with them that they will have no answer. I think a good line of questioning is the false prophet thing. We know they said they were prophets. But not inspired. So are the prophets or not? the bible didnt say beware flase inspired prophets. Either they are prophets or they arent. If they say they r, then they certainly arent true prophets. If they say they arent, they are lyingbecause we know they said they did. Do you think something like this would work?>
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garybuss
Welcome jj,
If yer gonna try to get a straight answer from a Jehovah's Witness, bring your lunch and yer pajamas cause it's gonna take all day and all night.
If ya wanna see a weasel work, try to pin a Jehovah's Witness down on being a prophet. Spin city.
My #2 policy is to never talk religion or Bible with a believing Witness. My #1 policy is never to live with a believing, practicing Witness. -
hubert
Get your wife to read "Crisis of Conscience", by Ray Franz. ........Alone, not with the j.w.'s.
I just finished reading it, and it is IMHO the best book to start with. There are many good books out there, as you can see, but this one really should open your wife's eyes, even after 3 or 4 chapters.
Arguing with the j.w. study people isn't going to get you anywhere. They will just ignore your statements, and change the subject, from what I've experienced from reading this board.
By the way, welcome to the board. Good luck with your quest.
Hubert
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AlmostAtheist
I found it upsetting that the Watchtower misquotes people to make their point seem valid. For instance, there are evolutionists that were very dishonestly misquoted to make it seem that they felt evolution was a theory on the brink of being overthrown by scientists, when nothing could be further from the truth.
You can read a good collection of those misquotes here: http://www.geocities.com/osarsif/cemisq.htm
There are also many misquotes around the Trinity issue: http://www.towerwatch.com/Witnesses/New_World_Translation/mantey_discussion.htm
Search on "Watchtower misquotes" in Google.com, you'll find plenty. Why would the Watchtower need to lie in order to support "The Truth"?
The other posters are right about the false prophet line, they can dance around it until YOU get tired. They'll blame the rank-and-file Witnesses, they'll say they never claimed to be inspired, they'll say that the 'light gets brighter and brighter' and that jehovah is refining them. Like trying to grab up a handful of smoke.
Crisis of Conscience is a good choice, particularly the scans of letters from the Watchtower.
It's a lame issue, but I discussed birthdays with my father-in-law to try to break him free from it. Their reasons for forbidding birthdays and a refutation of those reasons can be found here: http://thebentinel.com/jw-birthdays.html
Good luck, and welcome to the forum!
Dave
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Elsewhere
Here is something I put together....
Are Jehovah?s Witnesses False Prophets?
What does the bible say?
*** Reference Bible Deuteronomy 18:20-22 ***
20 "'However, the prophet who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded him to speak or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die. 21 And in case you should say in your heart: "How shall we know the word that Jehovah has not spoken?" 22 when the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak. With presumptuousness the prophet spoke it . You must not get frightened at him.'
*** Reference Bible
15 " Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to YOU in sheep's covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. 16 By their fruits YOU will recognize them...
Have Jehovah?s Witnesses and the ?Faithful and Discrete Slave? ever made a false prediction of Jesus? Coming?
*** Awake! 1993 March 22 pp.3-4 Why So Many False Alarms? ***
Jehovah's Witnesses , in their eagerness for Jesus' second coming, have suggested dates that turned out to be incorrect. Because of this, some have called them false prophets. Never in these instances, however, did they presume to originate predictions 'in the name of Jehovah.' Never did they say, 'These are the words of Jehovah.'
1889 "In the coming 26 years, all present governments will be overthrown and dissolved." (C.T. Russell, Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 2, p. 98-99, 1889)
1908 "In view of this strong Bible evidence concerning the Times of the Gentiles, we consider it an established truth that the final end of the kingdoms of this world, and the full establishment of the Kingdom of God, will be accomplished at the end of A. D. 1914." (The Time Is At Hand; 1889; 1908 ed.; p. 99)
1917 "And the mountains were not found. Even the republics will disappear in the fall of 1920. And the mountains were not found. Every kingdom of earth will pass away, be swallowed up in anarchy." (The Finished Mystery, 1917 edition, p. 258)
1917 "It is the Day of Vengeance, which began in the world war of 1914 and which will break like a furious morning storm in 1918." (The Finished Mystery, 1917, p. 404)
1920 '...we may expect 1925 to witness the return of these faithful men of from the condition of death, being resurrected' (Millions Now Living Will Never Die, 1920, p. 88)
1920 'Therefore we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old' (Millions Now Living Will Never Die, 1920, p. 89-90)
1922 "The indisputable facts, therefore, show that the "time of the end" began in 1799; that the Lord's second presence began in 1874." (The Watchtower, March 1, 1922)
1922 '1914 ended the Gentile Times...The date 1925 is even more distinctly indicated by the Scriptures...by then the great crisis will be reached and probably passed' (Watchtower Sept. 1, 1922, p. 262)
1923 '1925 is definitely settled by the Scriptures...the Christian has much more upon which to base his faith than Noah had (so far as the Scriptures reveal) upon which to base his faith in the coming deluge' (Watchtower April 1, 1923, p. 106)
1925 "The difficulty was that the friends inflated their imaginations beyond reason; and that when their imaginations burst asunder, they were inclined to throw away everything." (Watchtower 1925, p. 56)
1940 The Kingdom is here, the King is enthroned. Armageddon is just ahead. The glorious reign of Christ that shall bring blessings to the world will immediately follow. Therefore the great climax has been reached. Tribulation has fallen upon those who stand by the Lord. (The Messenger, Sept. 1940, p. 6)
1968 "True, there have been those in times past who predicted an "end" to the world, even announcing a specific date. Yet nothing happened. The 'end' did not come. They were guilty of false prophesying. Why? What was missing? Missing from such people were God's truths and the evidence that He was using and guiding them.'' (Awake, Oct. 8, 1968)
1989 Jehovah?s prophetic word through Christ Jesus is: ?This generation [of 1914] will by no means pass away until all things occur.? (Luke 21:32) And Jehovah, who is the source of inspired and unfailing prophecy, will bring about the fulfillment...
The Watchtower 1984 May 15 pp. 6-7
1989 "The apostle Paul was spearheading the Christian missionary activity. He was also laying a foundation for a work that would be completed in our 20th century." (Watchtower, Jan. 1, 1989, p. 12 [bound volume changed "20th century" to "day"])
Jehovah's prophetic word through Christ Jesus is: 'This generation (of 1914) will by no means pass away until all things occur.' (Luke 21:32) And Jehovah, who is the source of inspired and unfailing prophecy, will bring about the fulfillment of his Son's words in a relatively short time." {WT 6}
Do Jehovah?s Witnesses claim to be a prophet of Jehovah? Do Jehovah?s Witnesses claim that Jehovah God speaks through them?
*** Watchtower 1943 July 1 pp. 202-203 ***
Nothing is interpreted but the interpretation comes from God and is then published .
*** Watchtower 1957 June 15 p. 37 ***
It is vital that we appreciate this fact and respond to the directions of the 'slave' as we would to the voice of God, because it is His provision.
*** Awake! 1986 June 8 p.9 "Would That All Were Prophets!" ***
You will be interested to learn that God has on earth a people, all of whom are prophets , or witnesses for God. In fact, they are known throughout the world as Jehovah's Witnesses.
*** Watchtower 1960 July 15 p. 439 ***
"The 'slave' class has served as God's sole collective channel for the flow of Biblical truth to men on earth. Just as the early Christian congregation collectively served as the channel of communication from heaven to earth, so in our time."
*** Watchtower 1964 June 15 pp.365-6 Jehovah, the God of Progressive Revelation ***
THE KINGDOM'S ESTABLISHMENT
22 As Jehovah revealed his truths by means of the first-century Christian congregation so he does today by means of the present-day Christian congregation. Through this agency he is having carried out prophesying on an intensified and unparalleled scale . All this activity is not an accident. Jehovah is the one behind all of it. The abundance of spiritual food and the amazing details of Jehovah's purposes that have been revealed to Jehovah's anointed witnesses are clear evidence that they are the ones mentioned by Jesus when he foretold a "faithful and discreet slave" class that would be used to dispense God's progressive revelations in these last days. [...]
23 The holy spirit of Jehovah is working mightily today! How thankful we should be for the provision God has made of this slave class, the modern spiritual remnant, as they faithfully dispense the revealed truths of Jehovah ! With these rich truths to light the way, Christians do not grope in this dark, jungle-like world as do the masses of people in Christendom and heathendom alike. To the contrary, Jehovah's faithful witnesses have been progressively brought to an understanding of Jehovah's purposes, which are clearer now than ever before in history . Their organization, being patterned after the first-century Christian congregation, is blessed by Jehovah. He has prospered their work of preaching "this good news of the kingdom" in 194 different lands to date. Each year they gather into the organization tens of thousands of new ministers, clearly a product of Jehovah's spirit operating through his invisible King-Son and his angelic representatives, then through his faithful slave class on earth today.-. 24:14.
*** Watchtower 1964 October 1 p.601 Pay Attention to Prophecy ***
for God has on earth today a prophetlike organization , ... Jehovah's anointed witnesses on earth.
*** Watchtower 1965 June 1 p.352 Questions from Readers ***
New features of the work have required new methods, which has meant revisions and changes from time to time in organization instructions, but it is all a part of the advancement of Jehovah's theocratically controlled organization under the immediate direction of Jehovah God himself. Therefore, these revisions and changes are themselves fully theocratic, so they do not alter in any way the fully theocratic structure of the organization.
*** Watchtower 1972 August 1 p.458 Loving Oversight of the Congregation of God ***
THEOCRATIC APPOINTMENT IN THE CONGREGATION
10 But who is at the head of this rapidly expanding congregation, you ask? Is it some brilliant, farsighted man, some human who is a master organizer? No, for the Christian congregation is operated theocratically, meaning that it recognizes the leadership only of Jehovah God as exercised through his Son and enthroned King, Jesus Christ. (Isa. 33:22; Heb. 12:2; Rev. 19:16) This is what makes the congregation theocratic in structure, adhering to God-rule. If an organization is to be fully theocratic, it must be directed and controlled altogether by God and by the forces he operates. It is vital, therefore, that each one recognize that Jesus Christ is the Head of the Christian congregation, as well as showing proper regard for those on earth who have been theocratically appointed to positions of oversight.-Phil. 2:9-11; 1 Cor. 11:3; Acts 14:23.
*** Watchtower 1981 February 15 p.19 Do We Need Help to Understand the Bible? ***
OUR VIEW OF THE "SLAVE"
We can benefit from this consideration. If we have once established what instrument God is using as his "slave" to dispense spiritual food to his people, surely Jehovah is not pleased if we receive that food as though it might contain something harmful. We should have confidence in the channel God is using . At the headquarters from which the Bible publications of Jehovah's Witnesses emanate there are more mature Christian elders, both of the "remnant" and of the "other sheep," than anywhere else upon earth.
*** Watchtower 1981 December 1 p.27 The Path of the Righteous Does Keep Getting Brighter ***
Jehovah God has also provided his visible organization, his "faithful and discreet slave," made up of spirit-anointed ones ... Unless we are in touch with this channel of communication that God is using, we will not progress along the road to life, no matter how much Bible reading we do.
*** Watchtower 1983 February 15 p.12 You Can Live Forever in on Earth-But How? ***
A third requirement is that we be associated with God's channel, his organization. ... Jehovah is using only one organization today to accomplish his will. To receive everlasting life in the earthly we must identify that organization and serve God as part of it.
The Watchtower recognizes the truth as belonging to Jehovah, and not to any creature. The Watchtower is not the instrument of any man or set of men. No man?s opinion is expressed in The Watchtower. God feeds his own people, and surely God uses those who love and serve him according to his own will.
(Watchtower 1931 November 1 p. 327)
Jehovah God is therefore the only Supreme Court of interpretation of His inspired word.... To such remnant of faithful servants of Jehovah God Christ Jesus has entrusted all ?his goods?, or earthly interests of the Kingdom. This does not signify that the faithful remnant or society of Jehovah?s anointed witnesses are an earthly tribunal of interpretation, delegated to interpret the Scriptures and its prophecies. No; Christ Jesus the King has not entrusted that office to them. THE SUPREME COURT STILL INTERPRETS, thank God; and Christ Jesus, the Court?s official mouthpiece of interpretation, reserves to himself that office as head of Jehovah?s ?faithful and wise servant? class. He merely uses the ?servant? class to publish the interpretation after the Supreme Court by Christ Jesus reveals it.
(Watchtower 1943 July 1 p. 202, 203)
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Elsewhere
After you pin them down on being a false prophet they will start to say that the organization is made up of imperfect men who are just trying to do their best. This is when you ask them why they Disfellowship (Excommunicate) and shun anyone who publicly and openly questions the teachings of the Watchtower Society (WTS).
Also, ask them if after they Disfellowship a person for disagreeing with what the WTS teaches and then the WTS later changes what the person was disagreeing with, whether the elders will publicly apologize to the person and ask the person for their forgiveness. (The answer is NO).
If the elders try to tell you that the quotes from their literature are lies, then tell them that you will write to the WTS and ask for photocopies from their archive.
Watchtower Bible and Tract Society
25 Columbia Heights
Brooklyn, NY 11201-2483. -
Elsewhere
Regarding talking to your wife.
Never, never NEVER try to trash-talk about the organization or any JW. The reason for this is because by now they have told her to EXPECT this and that it is a sign that Satan is trying to attack her since she now "found the truth".
Instead, ask her to stop and take notice if your lives are better since meeting the JWs or is she less happy and more stressed.