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jwsons
Please help me prove the wts wrong
by gringojj 25 Replies latest watchtower bible
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jwsons
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Terry
Jehovah's Witnesses are always and only in the rebuttal mode. They counter punch.
Their minds are made to refute and not to think. An argument is never about the issue of fact; it is about the counter argumentation. Consequently, to avoid triggering this defense mechanism you will need to learn a very important principle.
Never make a statement; only ask a question.
A question is never an assertion and will not "break".
Examples:
1. What is the difference between a false prophet and a statement made that represents what God has said that turns out to be wrong? How do they differ in substance?
2. If Jehovah's kindness is "undeserved" then how does god avoid injustice in granting it?
3. If people don't get to hear JW's messege of truth about God's kingdom then they will be given a chance on the other side of Armageddon right? Then, don't you end up risking death by listening to this messege if you aren't convinced? Isn't it better to wait to hear about it AFTER Satan is bound and human perfection is restored?
4.If the most important work on earth is the preaching of the good news from door to door and that messege has changed and changed and changed doctrinally over the years because of new light; what can we say about the messege that was rejected by people at the door when that messege was incorrect old light? Were they separated on the basis of the error they rejected? Condemned to die because of it?
5.If millions of Witnesses preached that the 1975 date would bring extraordinary changes to earth (which did not occur) are they guilty of bringing shame upon Jehovah's name while following the direction to preach that messege from god's very own faithful and discreet slave? Why not?
6. Who are the loyal opposition in the Jehovah's Witness organization that can ask critical questions and straighten out errors before they are widely circulated and then changed by later thinking?
7. When the Catholic Church condemned heretics during the Inquisition, was it justified by facts? How do those heretics differ from apostates to the JW organization?
That is just a mild example of how not to engage the knee-jerk. Always keep it in the inquiry mode and you cannot be accused of asserting anything that will be hostile.
Also, be prepared for the rope-a-dope and don't be surprised if the conversation is short.
T.
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EvilForce
Generally they will answer your question like a politician....meaning when you think back on their answer they never really said anything at all except simply let their lips flap for a bit, then circled around and presented the next "Conversation Stopper" before you have a chance to realize what just happened.
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Stromboli
This site is going to help you locate where and when they said something, you've got to check it out, it's great and there are no comments by the owner.
one thing smile always smile, they will read if you are nervous and will put it down as "devil controlled", sit back and present them with constant failed profecies don't let it go keep getting on the point. People sold their houses in 1975 and it's stated in their KM focus on the hardship they coused to these people. If they say it's not about prophecies say you definately agree but show them that it is for them and there's plenty to show for it)
Do not bring up other religions org just say that they are not "IT". They don't have a clue just like anybody else.
Commend them for their good attitude but state that many other share their fundamental morals.... Last ask them to check how often the FDS put them selves at the center of attention in their publications, it looks like they like the power trip... smile and raise you shoulders at the end.......
For you personally, remember that ironically this will help you study the bible and learn many interesting things, so don't forget it when you're done with them....
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ShadowX
A few brothers came by a few weeks ago. I have always remained quiet about the issue until they came. They flat out told me that there was no way I could be a moral person if I was'nt a member of their organization. The final straw was when one of them told me that if I was alone with a beautiful naked woman and there was no one around I would cheat on my wife. Her study has called me a close associate of satan.
Man, and they told you all of that in your own house??? Why didn't you kick their asses? And what a load of crap two "brothers" would say to you in front of your wife. You're a brave man and I would add, greater christian then they are, thats for sure.
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El blanko
I hope it goes well for you and am amazed that they dared to say this:
They flat out told me that there was no way I could be a moral person if I was'nt a member of their organization. The final straw was when one of them told me that if I was alone with a beautiful naked woman and there was no one around I would cheat on my wife.
It doesn't surprise me though and it sounds as though you have stumbled across a right pair of twits.
I think there is some good advice on the thread and you need to prepare for battle!
A lot of JWs are lazy when it comes to actually listening to opposition and may ask you to provide "sound bites" of information, rather than a well thought out discourse.
One I spoke to recently told me that she didn't have time to read Christian Freedom because of her full time job and her time spent at the hall and WTBTS studies. She was totally bound by her religion.
They are also not interested in what you have to say and as Terry said, it is advisable to try and avoid putting them on the defensive, but boy it is hard!
I have attempted to reason with a guy over the past year who wishes to rejoin the organization and he is one of the most stubborn and ignorant individuals I have ever met, yet he typifies the JW mindset perfectly.
With him I have now given up and have actually advised him to go back to the hall and get on with it.
With your wife at least you aren't dealing with a practising JW or former JW and have a good chance!
Just take it slowly and as has already been pointed out get her to read for herself Ray's books.
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ellderwho
Terry: Never make a statement; only ask a question. A question is never an assertion and will not "break".
Great advice Terry. After three years of studying with different jws, this method is the best, I personally look for Jws to study with, I enjoy it.
The question leaves the one asking in total control. And remember its not what you believe, this is a trick they can angle on, attacking what you believe. Dont allow this. They are the ones selling the "eternal life insurance" the burden is always upon them.
Just take it slow, you will make mistakes its ok. This site is a great place for information, just keep asking.
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OldSoul
gringojj: key problems
http://www.un.org/dpi/ngosection/watchtower.pdf
This link describes what the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society has called an act of spiritual adultery. This type of adultery is one of the ways they identify Christendom as false religion. The relationship described was forbidden to Jehovah's Witnesses in a 1963 Resolution that you can find quoted in full several places on this site.
The WTS claims they merely "registered" with the UN/DPI, and organization they refer to as the image of the wild beast and the disgusting thing that causes desolation. But what they fail to disclose is what they "registered" as: NGO Affiliate associated to the UN/DPI. Of course, they applied. That is, they formally requested this status, they did not just sign up as would be the case with registration.
That makes the fact that the spiritual adultery happened far worse, because they are minimizing their conduct. They say that minimizing wrongdoing is evidence of a lack of repentance. I agree. In 1988, they published a book that stated that the 144,000 could be identified - in part - by spiritual virginity, free from spiritual adultery through wordly politics or false religion. They used James 4:4 as their basis.
In 1991, they used James 4:4 to describe religions of Christendom as spiritual adulteresses for becoming NGO Affiliates associated to the UN. In that same year, they applied to become an NGO Affiliate associated to the UN/DPI, the voice of the UN.
So, according to their reasoning, if you committed adultery every day for more than nine years you could simply stop and still be considered clean in God's eyes. No need to apologize to those you may have hurt. No need to even admit that you had committed adultery. Just stop the conduct and all is well.
Respectfully,
OldSoul -
El blanko
In 1991, they used James 4:4 to describe religions of Christendom as spiritual adulteresses for becoming NGO Affiliates associated to the UN. In that same year, they applied to become an NGO Affiliate associated to the UN/DPI, the voice of the UN.
... and you will find that your average Witness has no idea about this whatsoever and will enter into denial of the facts.
There are plenty of documents covering this very revealing incident and at some point if you fancy the challenge, bring this up!
They will however say that the move on behalf of the society was to access library resources, but of course we now know that you do not need to be an affiliate to access the information, it is an association that opens doors.
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Heatmiser
Just on a side note. Start preparing for the worst case. If she jumps into the JW religion with both feet, they (the JW) will drive a wedge in your marrriage that might/probably not be recoverable. It might take years or it might start right of way. By the way the study conductor sounds it might start sooner rather than later. Just do what you can financialy and legaly to prepare for a possible divorce. I am not trying to fill you full of doom and gloom just making you aware of what the outcome eventually is in many cases like yours. Some marriages make it and some don't, it doesn't hurt to prepare for "just in case".
On a brighter note, you couldn't have come to a better board for the wealth of knowledgable people here. If your wife isn't to sucked in yet she might see the WTBTS for what it really is. All of the info given so far is outstanding material and they will come at you with stuff that will be over your head as a person with little bible experiance. Just post away on this board and you definatly get the "academic" truth about JW dogma.
Good Luck
Heatmiser