Adam & Eve (a story full of questions)

by Big Jim 18 Replies latest jw friends

  • Big Jim
    Big Jim

    Adam And Eve

    Most people are probably familiar with the story of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. Also, most people consider it to be just a story. An metaphor or parable about the rise of human civilisation; an early attempt by people to try to make sense of our origins.

    There are, of course, people who take the story quite literally. As far as they are concerned, there was a garden called (or in) Eden. God did create Adam from dust, and later created Eve from one of Adam's ribs. And so on. This did happen and we are all their direct descendents, a few thousand years later. Exactly as described in Genesis.

    Fair enough. If they want to believe that, fine. However, if they want me to believe it also, then I'll need a few things sorting out first...

    Adam

    Okay, so God created Adam in his own image. Physically or spiritually, whatever.

    Did Adam have the standard male genitals? (most of you are probably familiar with them, one way or another). Now, I could understand God giving Adam a penis; after all, when you urinate it's handy to be able to aim somewhere convenient. But did he have testicles? Unless I've missed something, the sole purpose of testes is reproduction.
    ( What other use do they have? Maybe in the days before Eve, they served some other purpose. Perhaps they were some sort of alarm system, that lit up and made loud hooting noises if Adam strayed too close to a cliff edge or was about to eat something poisonous? )

    My point? Well, God created Eve so that Adam would not be lonely. Why did he give Adam testes at the start unless he already knew that he would have to create Eve also? Why not just create the two of them (Adam and Eve, that is) at the same time? What use are male reproductive organs without the complimentary female ones?

    Perhaps when God made Eve, he did a little extra surgery on Adam whilst he slept, and furnished him with the appropriate equipment. Imagine his surprise when he woke up!

    Eve

    Why did God create Eve from one of Adam's ribs? He created Adam from dust, what's the big deal about creating another one without having to do a bit of surgery on poor old Adam? You'd think an omnipotent being would be a bit more organised...
    ( And, of course, there's the story of Lillith - Eve was not the first woman, she came in second (or maybe even third...)).

    Death

    Was there any form of death before "the Fall"? If there was not, did God intervene to prevent all the flies, bacteria and rabbits from breeding like, well, flies, bacteria and rabbits? If not, the world would have been hundreds of feet deep in ooze. Some people say "Aha, but disease is a result of sin, so there were no bacteria then". Aha back, I say, without bacteria the whole ecosystem collapses. Not all bacteria are harmful, many organisms have symbiotic relationships with bacteria and could not survive without them.

    The Apple

    Well, fruit of some sort, but we'll call it an apple for now, as that is the traditional image.
    So, God creates Adam and Eve, with no knowledge of good or evil, right or wrong - they are truly innocent. He sticks them in a Garden, and for some reason creates a tree whose fruit gives you the Knowledge of Good and Evil (it's not explained how this works, but we'll take their word for it).
    "DO NOT EAT OF THIS TREE, OR YOU'LL DIE." says God.
    Adam and Eve hear this and dutifully nod their heads. God goes off somewhere (he's a busy guy) leaving these two alone.

    Now, as Adam and Eve don't have the faintest idea of right and wrong, they don't know it's a Bad Idea to disobey God ("Hey, God just told us not to eat that fruit!", "So? What's your point?", "Erm... I don't know. Save some for me!") The only way they can gain this knowledge is by.... Eating from the Tree!

    It's like giving a bottle of bleach to a child who is too young to read the warning labels, and then being surprised when they poison themselves with it. To make matter worse, Adam and Eve were threatened with the punishment of death. How can this be any sort of threat? There was no death in The Garden (see above) - they had never witnessed it, and would probably have a hard time grasping the concept anyway. So, they were told not to do something (and had no way of knowing that disobedience was bad), otherwise something would happen to them (and they had no idea what that was, or whether it was a good or bad thing to happen anyway).. "We'll die? What does that mean? Maybe it's fun!"

    It's the original Catch 22 situation.

    Bare Naked Ladies (and Adam)

    Another confusing aspect involves their nakedness. Apparently, when they ate the fruit they suddenly realised that they were naked, and this was shameful. This seems a little strange, as presumably all other creatures in the Garden were also naked, unless it was populated by Disney cartoon animals. ( "Oh no! We've got no clothes on! How embarassing!", says Adam. "Erm... What are clothes?", says Eve. )
    If it was inherently wrong and immoral for these two to walk around naked, then why did God create them that way in the first place? Why would He want them to do something that He considered to be wrong? Did He just like watching naked people or something? Possibly, He wanted them to remain completely innocent and unsullied by such concepts as Right and Wrong. In that case, Adam could have done anything he felt like, being totally oblivious to the fact that some things were right and some were wrong. He could have tested the aerodynamic ability of small rodents, tortured bunnies, and killed and eaten Eve. God would have looked on happily as Adam innocently frolicked around enjoyed himself, unaware that he was committing all sorts of indecent, immoral and Wrong acts.

    Giving them the Knowledge Of Good And Evil was the only way to prevent this sort of thing happening, so why is the act of eating the fruit considered to be Original Sin? After all, it stopped them from immorally walking around stark naked, didn't it? If Original Sin stems from Eve getting Adam to eat the fruit, in doing so she was preventing his wicked nakedness and any further immoral acts he might accidentally commit in his ignorance, wasn't she?

    As for the clothing that they wore, Robert Green Ingersoll had this to say in his essay Some Mistakes Of Moses :
    In this same chapter we are informed that "unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins and clothed them." Where did the Lord God get those skins?
    He must have taken them from the animals; he was a butcher.
    Then he had to prepare them; He was a tanner.
    Then he made them into coats; he was a tailor.
    How did it happen that they needed coats of skins, when they had been perfectly comfortable in a nude condition? Did the "fall" produce a change in the climate?

    Of course, God might have simply produced the coats using god-magic, and no animals needed to have been harmed. The Knowledge Of Good And Evil must contain some sort of information regarding animal rights - I wonder how Adam and Eve responded to being given skin ripped from dead animals to wear? Modern animal rights activists would have a thing or two to say about the matter - but then, God Himself seemed to think it was okay; and knowing Good from Evil, so then did Adam and Eve. After all, God seems to have been fairly keen on animal sacrifices throughout the Old Testament and, being immutable, I guess He still is...

    Alternatively, he could have woven them perfectly decent clothes from cotton, silk or wool or some other natural fabric. He could have even given them expensive designer outfits or clown clothes to wear, and they would have been none the wiser.

    Original Sin and Aliens

    Apparently the Vatican has been thinking about this. Problem is, if alien civilisations exist, will they have the problem of Original Sin? As Adam and Eve were created on Earth, Original Sin has passed down from them to the rest of us (apparently). Unless they developed space travel and whizzed off to Betelgeuse for a couple of weeks, aliens should be free from their taint. Aliens will, it seems, be free from sin. They will not have needed Christ to appear to them to get killed by the state, as they have no sin to be saved from.

    The kids

    Adam and Eve had two children that we know of. Cain and Abel. When they grew up, Cain (or was it the other one?) went off and found a wife. Just where exactly did this woman come from?
    And, for that matter, where did everyone else come from? Unless God had been creating loads of people on the sly, the only way for the population to develop from Adam, Eve and the two sons has to involve incestuous relationships.
    Not a very good example for the rest of us, is it? (The same also applies when God trashed the world and left Noah and his small family to repopulate the world).
    Genesis has more holes in it than Blackburn, Lancashire.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  • philo
    philo

    Very funny Jim, especially I liked your take on the profound question of bollocks

    ::Perhaps they were some sort of alarm system, that lit up and made loud hooting noises if Adam strayed too close to a cliff edge or was about to eat something poisonous?

    So many weird things and questions raised is a great way to start a book, its a shame answers the answers don't come up by the end of the bible.

    Were you ever a JW? If so, you probably realise that some of your questions are covered (with a range of success) by their theology, for example, death. They say animals died before the fall, so Adam knew what death meant as he had seen it.

    philo

  • Big Jim
    Big Jim

    Yes I was a JW for many years, at the time of my breaking away I was a MS and a regular pioneer. Been away for over five years now.

    As far as there answers and there theology, since when can you put any stock in there calculations as to time lines? I know I cannot, especially knowing what I have learned concerning all there failed predictions.

    Are you currently still in the non-truth? Are were you ever?

  • joelbear
    joelbear

    I think putting on clothes was the real original sin. Clothes are the outer symbol that separates us from the rest of nature. We have separated ourselves from nature thus destroying nature and ourselves.

    naked hugs

    Joel

  • lauralisa
    lauralisa

    In the "new system", er, I mean the paradisaic conditions on earth during the "1000 year reign", the rhetoric is that we will all be healed of all infirmaties of the flesh.

    Will circumcised penises be restored to their original un-wacked pee-pee condition? I always wondered that. Also, will the holes in my ears for earrings be sealed up?

  • RunningMan
    RunningMan

    I loved your analysis.

    In addition, I think that the story of Adam, Eve, and
    original sin is totally out of proportion.

    Adam and Eve eat a piece of fruit. This is a crime
    roughly on par with a parking ticket. Of course, the
    only reasonable response to this infraction is for all
    humans (around 25 Billion) to die, some of them under
    hideous and cruel conditions, many of whom have never
    even heard the story. Even children and the mentally
    impaired are murdered, all because of this piece of fruit.

    The solution to the problem? Well, instead of just giving
    God a bucket of apples to make up for the theft, he
    determines that the only reasonable response is for
    an innocent human to die. So, he allows his son to
    be killed, but the carnage doesn't end even then. There
    is an inexplicable 2,000 year delay while even more people
    die.

    Sheesh, God, get over it already. I'll mail you a bunch of
    bananas or something. Why all the fuss?

  • philo
    philo

    Joel bear,

    Yes, the story does have some narrative power. I thought the same about clothes/leaves/skins.

    Jim,
    I was a JW from age 15-29, MS, pioneer for 4 years, Wcleaner, married, shunned, divorced. On the good side, I have a FOXY girlfriend now!

    YOu're right, all their answers to the A+E story are presumptions, not even scriptural, most of them.

    philo

  • Rex B13
    Rex B13

    Well Big Jim,
    Calling you that I gather your nickname has nothing to do with your cranial capacity?
    You have a rather unique analysis of a story that is only mean't to tell us of our origins. Not even us really, but it was written by and for the ancients who lived in a simpler, yet meaner world.
    God does not have His prophets take dictation. They interpret and write (or talk) about how they see their visions.
    Any idiot can come up with 'twenty questions' for any story in the Bible and JW rationalism is a fatally flawed example of this. It leaves out the mystery which applies to inspiration and attempts to use human reasoning ad nauseum.
    One thing that you need to realize is that our Lord Jesus used the tales from Genesis in a literal sense, therefore they are literal events to some degree regardless of the opinion of you, I or a whole host of doubting Thomas'.
    Take the 66 books making up the Bible in their whole context and the whole thing makes very good sense.
    Cheers,
    Rex

  • Big Jim
    Big Jim

    Rex
    What it boils down to is this thing that is called religion. Which in my opinion is the worst thing that could have ever have been put upon this earth due to the many horrible things that have been done in the name of religion.

    If there was a God that wanted his creation to serve him in truth I would think that the facts would have been presented a little more precise then that of mere interputations of man.

    Math is precise 1+1=2 there is no interputations to that.
    Math is not even important to ones salvation. So I would hope that a message from above in the form of a book would be more precise.

    However it is not, it is very un-precise and is full of flaws.

    Those who believe in their truth -- the only ones whose imprint is retained by the memory of men -- leave the earth behind them strewn with corpses. Religions number in their ledgers more murders than the bloodiest tyrannies account for, and those whom humanity has called divine far surpass the most conscientious murderers in their thirst for slaughter.

    There are people who read too much: bibliobibuli. I know some who are constantly drunk on books, as other men are drunk on whiskey or religion. They wander through this most diverting and stimulating of worlds in a haze, seeing nothing and hearing nothing.

    The Bible knows nothing of solitary religion.

    Religions are the great fairy tales of conscience.

    History, is made up of the bad actions of extraordinary men and woman. All the most noted destroyers and deceivers of our species, all the founders of arbitrary governments and false religions have been extraordinary people; and nine tenths of the calamities that have befallen the human race had no other origin than the union of high intelligence with low desires.

    A myth is a religion in which no one any longer believes.

  • Rex B13
    Rex B13

    Thanks for answering me, Jim. Sorry about the crack I made at you. ;-)

    >Rex
    What it boils down to is this thing that is called religion. Which in my opinion is the worst thing that could have ever have been put upon this earth due to the many horrible things that have been done in the name of religion.

    Many horrible things have been done in the name of 'democracy' and 'freedom', do we deny the GOOD done by America because of these incidents. Also, why in the world would you blame Jesus because some person who claimed to be a follower committed evil acts?
    We all worship something, we have that inherent need to know our creator. I happen to think that the Bible is the sole revelation from God.

    >f there was a God that wanted his creation to serve him in truth I would think that the facts would have been presented a little more precise then that of mere interputations of man.

    Why?

    >Math is precise 1+1=2 there is no interputations to that.

    What does that have to do with the subject?

    >Math is not even important to ones salvation. So I would hope that a message from above in the form of a book would be more precise.

    What,do you want it 'spelled out'? I can show you the whole plan of Salvation in one verse or more detailed in six or seven. It is your insistence that you should be able to rationalize everything that stands in the way of your very own salvation.

    >However it is not, it is very un-precise and is full of flaws.

    Flaws? Proven flaws? You need to be careful here for there are valid speculations for every alleged 'atheistic inspired flaw' that you guys keep jabbering about.

    >Those who believe in their truth -- the only ones whose imprint is retained by the memory of men -- leave the earth behind them strewn with corpses. Religions number in their ledgers more murders than the bloodiest tyrannies account for, and those whom humanity has called divine far surpass the most conscientious murderers in their thirst for slaughter.

    Do you have stats to back that up or is it mere rhetoric? Indeed, if one's behavior isn't "You shall know them by their love. one to another" then how in the world can you label them Christians?
    Doesn't their own 'lack of love' betray their true spirit? Also, do you expect any Christian to be perfect in all of his life or will he be sinful like sll of us are?

    >There are people who read too much: bibliobibuli. I know some who are constantly drunk on books, as other men are drunk on whiskey or religion. They wander through this most diverting and stimulating of worlds in a haze, seeing nothing and hearing nothing.

    You lost me here.

    >The Bible knows nothing of solitary religion.

    Of course notr, it teaches that we are to have fellowship with one another and take care of each other.

    >Religions are the great fairy tales of conscience.

    If that's so, then why do most societies going back into ancient times have some very similiar modes of 'normal' or 'lawful' behavior? It is only when demonistic pagan practices begin that things go weird.

    >History, is made up of the bad actions of extraordinary men and woman. All the most noted destroyers and deceivers of our species, all the founders of arbitrary governments and false religions have been extraordinary people; and nine tenths of the calamities that have befallen the human race had no other origin than the union of high intelligence with low desires.

    Man, what is that all about?

    >A myth is a religion in which no one any longer believes

    Jim, anyone who carefully studies the difference between myths and Christianity can see that any similiarities are only superficial. When the apostle Paul defending Christ before the ruling class he appealed to real events that they themselves knew about and could verify for themselves. There were hundreds of eye-witnesses to the resurrected Christ who walked among them.
    It's time for you to actually study some positive works about Christianity, available in public libraries, then go visit a Bible teaching church that has a learned pastor.
    Later,
    Rex

    Christianity: a Witness of History......J.N. Anderson
    the New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable?......F.F. Bruce
    Evidence That Demands a Verdict (1 & 2)Josh McDowell
    History and Christianity........John Montgomery
    Basic Christianity..........John Stott
    Bible Explorer's Guide......John Phillips
    Mere Christianity.........C.S. Lewis

    Check out the last book first. McDowall also has a small booklet, "Answers to 100 toughest questions about the Bible".

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