Reply re: "UN scandal" (personal letter quote)...

by upside/down 21 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • upside/down
    upside/down

    This is a response from one of my best friends in the whole wide world who is WAY "in" in the org.

    It's amazing how for such an intelligent, reasonable man that doesn't agree with many of the tenets of the WTS party line, ultimately he still tows the party line for the most crucial JW doctrine.... the role of the FDS as the sole "channel" for "God". I knew it was inevitable... he is the only Dub that so far hasn't shunned me....

    The following is an excerpt of his personal letter to me.... PLEASE READ it and critique it. (highlight are mine)

    I reread the links about the org and the UN. I actually found it very interesting. Not at all 'damning'. A Bethel Bro who I knew was at our KM school in '92 and told me he was the Society's official observer at the UN. He was allowed to sit and listen to the discussion at the general assembly. I do not know if this was part of their being an approved associating organization or not or what they had to do to get an approved observer. I was under the impression he had been doing it for quite a while but I could be mistaken about that. My feeling was (and is) that I liked the fact the org keeps a close eye on world events and event makers (UN). Might they also use knowledge they gain to make decisions related to the org and its work? I would think so and hope so. For example: I know the org watches the US supreme court and its tendencies closely. And that for years the org was concerned that the court would decide a case against our freedom to preach in certain areas so we let some cities keep us out. But recently we took a case there and won. Might what we hear at the UN help us to decide whether or not to build a branch in a certain country? I would think so. That would be very prudent. Would the org try to use the association with the UN to get countries to treat us more favorably? I guess if a country viewed us that way it would be a bonus. But to think we were trying to cover-up our view of the UN and world governments is silly to me. Both of the links to the Guardian's reports clearly state how they and everyone knows that we have for decades clearly and publicly condemned the UN and govs for how the Bible portrays them. Is it our fault the UN approved us and didn't know how we felt about them? It was no secret. Are we trying to gain favor with govs? We know and expect the opposite. The issue in France was one of taxes. Money. Nothing we did was going to change that. And I believe that is going to be a big issue in the future in other countries. (When I was in NY the US tried to tax the org. We paid the tax and took them to court and won.) It will happen again, no matter how much we would try to curry favor with them So why bother. What we do to get what is legally right we do through the court. Even what I read in the links was nothing condemning. Link 1 stated what the Society said happen. In link 2 the UN said the org knew they were to be in support of the UN. Yet the only part of its letter in quotes (which was dated '92) says only that an associating org needs to make known the UN's activities. This the Society does when it publishes info about the UN. It doesn't mean they support what they have reported. The UN letter adds that thought under the paragraph in quotes from the '91 reference. The letter itself was from '94. The last two links are from the Guardian. Their source is a former witness. And as mentioned above, they admit we are very clear and public on our view of the UN. Yet there is no condemnation of the UN for not knowing this when approving the Society. Only condemnation of us. And of course it couldn't have been an oversight by the org or have been an issue raised after '91 by the UN. It had to be deception by the Society. You would think an unbiased report would consider all the possibilities. I have to say that after the last email before this one (the one I still need to reply to) I was beginning to think that your reactions are beginning to be more emotionally based than mind (reasoning) based. This makes me more concerned about that. Our book study this week covered the verses in 1cor13 about love. It mentioned how we need love that believes and bears all things so when we are hurt or disappointed by ones in the org we still believe that this is the truth and the channel Jehovah uses. That love for Jehovah and the truth helps us bear the hurt and disappointments. I don't think I've written a letter this long in 15 years. How are you doing? What are you doing up at 1am? So there you have it! The company party line... Some things will never change... and this is someone who GENUINELY cares for me. The following was my reply... I too am surprised at the length of your reply and am glad. I would rather have a well thought out semi-exhaustive response than just a pat dogmatic answer any day. As far as your take on the UN info... it's obvious to me that it's biased...That's not what I looked at. As far as what you say in the way of excuses/reason/apologies I don't think we're on the same page... If I perceive what you're saying (and this would be very in line with what the so-called elders have used to reason with me on my matters) you're saying that "theocratic warfare" so to speak justifies breaking the very same rules we condemn others for doing... buying a political card in Malawi to avoid persecution, ok'ing blood transfusions for Bulgaria, bribing Mexican officials so as to avoid compulsory military service, being condemned as part of Babylon the Great if a member of the YMCA or Salvation Army, and on and on... WE DO THIS. These things never bothered me till the MOUNTAIN of injustice and cruel and unusual treatment that's been heaped on me by so-called "brothers". I cannot deny the facts of how I've been treated to an EXTREME degree... basically left for dead. That is a complete repudiation of everything Christ taught! I could go on and on... I will no longer make excuses for the WTS (or it's "ordained ministers", which technically includes me) as I have always done in the past, chalking each and every mistake or cruel act to "imperfection". It's much more than that. JW's are a cliquish self-absorbed, high-control, self-righteous group as a whole. I will use only one (of many) examples from my experience to make my rock solid point.... I was accused falsely by an entire group of elders of heinous acts that never took place... I have proof and witnesses (you being one of them) I followed "The Societies" direction to the letter.... went through the proper "channels" and NOTHING has been or ever will be done! It goes all the way from the local level to the CO to "The Society". This is WRONG. This cannot be spirit directed. My prayers and supplications have fell on deaf ears all around.... and I have no recourse but sit a "swallow" it.... NO MORE! They in my opinion have all disassociated/ disfellowshipped themselves by their actions and lack of actions. But I know this means nothing to any of them... just like the Pharisees. I still ask one of these liars to show me what I've done wrong.... no reply. I cannot consienceously support these men...or have anything to do with them. Never forget THEY SHUNNED AND CONTINUE TO SHUN ME AND MY FAMILY. While coddeling a man-whore like (the man my wife fornicated with) !!! They are actually seeking him and invite him not only to the Memorial but all the meetings and study with him.... enough of this nonsense As regard your family... that's great news. I know you'll do well. Sounds like a really pretty and nice area. My dad has land and two house in Long Lane Missouri, which is near Lebanon. Is that close to where you'll be? The fact that you get rid of the harsh winter weather is a big plus. I would really like to see it. I love to hunt and fish... although I haven't done it in a while... still wrestling with anhedonia. You're the kinda guy that flies under the radar as far as the brothers are concerned... you're quiet enough they'll leave you alone long enough to get all your priveleges and then it'll be too late hopefully for any inbred tyrants to hurt you or your family... Watch out for ticks and lyme disease... I would really like to talk at length with you about these "core" issues I wonder about. I felt exactly as you do for my entire life as a JW... but my filters have been changed by the gross conduct of "God's" people. I'm only human... I'm not a willful rebel, but I'm not going to be maltreated any longer either. I have a brain and a God-given intellect and a heart and these men have violated that and want me to believe and follow without letting me "make sure" of things. They offer me a cold shoulder with no explanation and NO SPIRITUAL help at all. They are blind leading the blind IMO. The saddest fact of all of this is this pattern keeps playing itself out over and over again. I have many friends (brothers) that are now in the same sitch as me. I'm not alone in being maltreated (could this be the evil slave beating his fellow slave?). I offer no apostate doctrine I just act as a witness to their ungodly conduct. The people who've done this cannot be "christians". It is willful and with bad intent. As I've said before... God needs to clean house... or let this org die on the vine just like apostate Israel. When one life or family isn't worth saving... they are too proud to correct their own or admit when a mistake has been made... at our expense... then that organization is no longer useful. IMO. But I know I'll just be labeled weak or apostate or given up to a disapproved mental state etc... The proof is in the pudding. Call me some time... I know it's long... but please give a critique towards helping (if possible)... this is not your typical R&F Dub and I still love him. Allthough, my love for him will never lead me back to the unholy yoke of the WTS! u/d Bang Your Head


  • whyamihere
    whyamihere

    Does he personally know anyone who holds the card to the UN in Bethel and how their actions and words speak about having it?

    Well I for one do. I found it funny how pompous and how he thought the world evolved around him. How he snuck people in a room and quietly showed them the card like he was apart of the fricken CIA. I think there is a reason why they are there but not to help us in anyway.

    Brooke

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    KISS format works well in situations like this;

    If it's okay for someone in Bethel to get a library card to use the UN library, why is it not okay for someone to get a YMCA card to use the gym?

    Is it some are more equal than others?

    Or

    we need love that believes and bears all things so when we are hurt or disappointed by ones in the org we still believe that this is the truth and the channel Jehovah uses.

    How remarkable! I was talking to a Roman Cathloic the other day who was disappointed at the choice of new Pope. And they said almost exactly the same thing, except they substitued 'Church' for 'org' and obviously didn't use a middle-ages Anglisized version of a puported pronunciation of the tetragrammaton.

    I find that my parents can't follow a complex argument to save their life, especially if it is one where one is meant to extrapolate something; keep each chunk short and discrete.

  • AlmostAtheist
    AlmostAtheist

    When I was a hardcore dub, I never tied the behavior of JW's with the rightfulness of the organization. Even if all JW's were monsters, I would still have accepted the Watchtower as God's organization. If I were your friend, I would be thinking, "What a shame! He's letting the imperfections of his brothers -- perhaps even 'false brothers' -- chase him away from Jehovah and his loving organization. Mistakes happen, 'new light' has yet to shine, we need to accept that Jehovah is allowing these things for a reason and he will correct them in his due time."

    If you're trying to save your friend from the Watchtower, you probably need to take a more intellectual tack. The arbitrariness of forbidding birthdays, but not eye makeup or wedding showers. The condemning of blood, but allowing virtually every component of blood taken separately. The lack of any evidence for the 607 date.

    This sounds like a guy that could survive reading Crisis of Conscience.

    Why does he not shun you? Are you not DF'd/DA'd?

    Dave

  • upside/down
    upside/down

    I forgot to ask him WHY did they abruptly quit the UN "thing" if there's nothing wrong with it?

    As I've learned from JWD, "All is fair in love and THEOCRATIC WARFARE!"

    KISS-- good point.... I tend to get too wordy....it's part of the Sicilian curse.\

    u/d

  • upside/down
    upside/down

    AA- nope neither.... I was a damn GOOD Dub.

    You make some great points... re: the birthdays etc... HE AGREES 100%, but relies on the old for now we just show loyalty to the org and it'll all get fixed in the NS... I told him that he is as much an apostate as anyone... he just keeps his mouth shut. He agreed.

    C of C... I don't think he'd touch it with a 10' pole... he was at Bethel when Franz got booted.

    He insists that I'm right and the org (in some instances) is wrong...BUT.... it all boils down to "loyalty to Jehovah"....and that's where we diverge....LOYALTY define it?

    Thanks for the comments....

    u/d

  • Goldminer
    Goldminer

    Frustrating,isn't it?

    I asked my wife how she'd react if she was told the WTS was associated somehow with the UN.( I haven't told her the real story yet).She said it wouldn't really bother her,that she works for a government agency and gets a paycheque indirectly from the government,so if the WTS society was associated with the UN that was their business.I was so stunned I didn't know what to say.

    Some loyal JW's will put up with anything and twist it all just to back-up the Watch Tower Bible & Trap Society!

  • AlmostAtheist
    AlmostAtheist
    HE AGREES 100%, but relies on the old for now we just show loyalty to the org and it'll all get fixed in the NS... I told him that he is as much an apostate as anyone... he just keeps his mouth shut. He agreed.

    It might pay to go over with him the examples in the Bible of people that had to choose between serving God correctly and serving him the way his organization of the day was directing. We had a thread on this a few months ago, focusing on the Aaron/Golden Calf thing. Several other examples were mentioned as well:

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/83217/1.ashx

    Sounds like he knows it's not "the truth", but still believes in the Faithful and Discreet Slave crapola. If you could get him to understand that serving God and serving the bOrg are two different things, maybe he can shake loose.

    Dave

  • ithinkisee
    ithinkisee

    Goldminer,

    Don't ask your wife what she would think if the WT was "somehow" affiliated with the UN.

    Instead, ask her what she would think if the Society pledged to uphold the "goals and ideals" of the UN and fulfilled this goal by printing articles in their holy publications about all the good things the UN has done to fulfill that obligation.

    See if you get the same response.

    -ithinkisee

  • sf
    sf

    Is it our fault the UN approved us and didn't know how we felt about them? It was no secret.

    Ha! That does not even make sense.

    sKally

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