Help out, I need an ex-jw opinion: Explanation of why I can't be a dub (page 2)

Flash

Another person here asked similar information. Maybe you'll get some ideas there too.

Please help me prove the wts wrong:

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/89057/1488958/post.ashx#1488958

M.J.

About the messenger--you might add that the king could leave instructions to his people beforehand on how to be able to tell who is a fake messenger. (Deut 18:20)

If you wanted to make it a presentation, say to your son at bedtime, rather than a round-table discussion, I think an effective method would be to put it in parable form...like once upon a time before telephones there was a king who would take journeys away from his kingdom to blah blah...whenever he sent a messenger to tell his people the important instructions, the messenger would prove it was from the king by...imposters couldn't get away with speaking in the kings name because...

M.J.

Putting a JW hat on...If the king were to leave for a "long time", would he not leave someone in charge of his kingdom? If it was inevitable that there would not be agreement on his instructions, would he not appoint someone to make the final call?

ezekiel3

I am merely trying to give a sound justification why I can't, in good Christian conscience, become a dub "right now".

You have a perfect situation with your wife in that the ball is in her court to prove to you why you should be one.

You are right not to try to refute anything. It should be your wife's burden of proof, and trust me she's eager to try.

During this process you might bait her with your doubts. I recommend:

607 vs 587. The entire JW doctrine hinges on 1914, and they derive this date from 607 BC when, they teach that Jerusalem was destroyed. In fact JWs are the only group to say 607, all other historians agree on 586 or 587. See www.607v587.com and
Why was the Watchtower Society a NGO of the UN when JWs consider the UN to be the "wild beast" prophecied in Revelation? If she asks for proof, take her to the official UN press release (not an apostate site): www.un.org/dpi/ngosection/watchtower.pdf

Above all, make her explain. If her explanations are not sufficient, then you have your reason for not becoming a JW.

You have a special opportunity to expose her to "apostate" information in this regard. But it will only work if you are passive about it. As soon as you go on the offensive, all her red-flags will shut her down and deeply affect your relationship. You do not want this to become a division between you. Instead, open your arms to her presentation.

WARNING: Do not let her get other JWs or elders in on this discussion. Your responses will indicate apostate sources. This will cause the other JWs to brand you as an opposer. This switches you from the label "unbelieveing mate" to the label "apostate." Both terms are cult language meant to suppress personal thought. If you are labeled "apostate" everything you say to your wife will have to pass through an "apostate" filter. In essence, you would become a direct spiritual danger to her.

Instead, insist that she alone defend her belief. Although she may be uncomfortable with this, you can tell her that it is important that this come out of her mouth, not someone else's. Otherwise it's other people's belief, not her's.

I don't know how long your wife has been a JW, but it makes a lot of difference how you approach her.

If she's new it's easier, but she will be fresh with the love-bombing new recruits get. In this case, go directly for the "new car" approach. If you are going to buy a new car, do you believe everything the salesman tells you? Or is it wiser to check Consumer Reports, car magazines, even people who are not happy with their purchase? Emphasize, that this is no mere car, this is your lives you are committing.

If she's a veteran the programming may be deep so watch out. JWs are not JWs because of the doctrine, its because of their pipe-dream "paradise". This means that most JWs will fight/ignor/disregard any notion that threatens that hope, no matter how logical. You must rely on her to prove it to you. That's all you have, unless you have noticed and doubts or gripes she has about JWs. This may be a chink in her armor, but go softly. More likely, you have not seen the doubts because she is hiding anything negative from you in order to give a good impression.

So start with your illustration (which is excellent) as a way to express your doubts. Then put it in her lap and see what she does. I don't know your personality, but you must appear open-hearted and sincere at all times.

Keep a short leash on your tongue, and let her have the rest of the rope...

Check_Your_Premises

Great advice Zeke,

I have been at this for a few months. I made many of the common rookie mistakes, but with the help of jwd and others I am making headway. Everything you said, always bears repeating!

This illustration is a small part of that effort.

Mostly it is meant to give me cover from the condescending jw attitude

"This is the truth, if you don't believe it something must be wrong with you"

She is newly dunked by the way.

Check_Your_Premises

MJ,

Instructions for identifying a fake messenger.... nice.

I don't know if I will include it. It might hit to close to home. Mostly I was trying to keep the analogy general, and not to specific to Christianity or an outright refutation of the dubs.

This is mostly meant to give a good explanation why my Christian conscience doesn't allow me to me a dub "right now". As a secondary goal it would be nice to help encourage some thought. As it is, I think it will be fairly devastating in that regard.

But you and I both know what Zeke said is true, it isn't about any logic it is about their pipe dream.

CYP

Check_Your_Premises

Maybe I will write a different version that is more of a refutation.

If nothing else it would be really fun.

Yeah, I need to deal with the "wouldn't the king leave someone in charge" thing.

And of course you know she will go right into, "and if you look at the message, one servant will be the only one following it the right way"

Thanks eveyone for your input!

M.J.

Don't give up that easy! the "leaving someone in charge thing" clearly points back to the point that the the burden is on that "appointed" guy to doubtlessly prove that he's been put in charge. If he decided on his own to be in charge without the king's authority, he and his followers are committing treason and will all be put to death when the king comes back! So one should be very careful in examining someone who claims this kind of authority!!!!

M.J.

And of course you know she will go right into, "and if you look at the message, one servant will be the only one following it the right way"

Not so! The king will take care to assure that certain important points of his instructions are clear enough for anyone to understand correctly. These points are the same ones that many will independently arrive at and agree upon. The ones you have to watch out for are the ones that could never be arrived at independently...

Help out, I need an ex-jw opinion: Explanation of why I can't be a dub

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