Help out, I need an ex-jw opinion: Explanation of why I can't be a dub (page 3)

Check_Your_Premises

MJ,

Ok, I see what you are getting at. And it does fit well with the overall theme, which is that any loyal subject (conscientious Christian) should be very wary of following someone who claims they are appointed by the king.

Good point.

CYP

Check_Your_Premises

The ones you have to watch out for are the ones that could never be arrived at independently...

Could you elaborate on this one?

OldSoul

Check_Your_Premises: Maybe I will write a different version that is more of a refutation.

That may be a good idea, but you are nearly guaranteed to alienate your spouse. Sincere questioning is probably the best way to go.

Lead in some days before letting her know you've been thinking seriously about where your life is heading. This will be entirely genuine, of course. You simply need not mention you are afraid this org will rip you two asunder. But just say it and leave it there. Any wife will wonder long and hard about what you mean.

Follow after a couple of days by asking, "Okay, if I have questions about their beliefs they can give me scriptural answers, right?"

She'll readily agree (poor dear).

Invite "them" over for a discussion (you know who "they" are).

Have your questions well in mind, we will all be glad to prep you as much as you like. Make sure "they" are trying to provide scriptural answers in front of your wife. This way, you are not attacking her at all. You aren't even attacking "them." You are just allowing her an opportunity to see the gross inadequacy.

Respectfully,
OldSoul (of the "Going Through the Same Thing" class)

M.J.

Could you elaborate on this one?

Stuff that could never be arrived at by any 2 folks independently in a million years:

The FDS will be the 144k which will be represented by an organization which will be chosen in 1919 by an invisible returned Christ and it will be Rutherford and company.

The door to heaven was closed in 1935.

The 144K are all true Christians from Pentecost until 1935.

etc., etc.

This article may shed some light on the matter:

***w81 8/15 pp. 28-29 Serving Jehovah "Shoulder to Shoulder" ***
14From time to time, there have arisen from among the ranks of Jehovah?s people those who, like the original Satan, have adopted an independent, faultfinding attitude. They do not want to serve "shoulder to shoulder" with the worldwide brotherhood. (Compare Ephesians 2:19-22.) Rather, they present a "stubborn shoulder" to Jehovah?s words. (Zech. 7:11, 12) Reviling the pattern of the "pure language" that Jehovah has so graciously taught his people over the past century, these haughty ones try to draw the "sheep" away from the one international "flock" that Jesus has gathered in the earth. (John 10:7-10, 16) They try to sow doubts and to separate unsuspecting ones from the bounteous "table" of spiritual food spread at the Kingdom Halls of Jehovah?s Witnesses, where truly there is ?nothing lacking.? (Ps. 23:1-6) They say that it is sufficient to read the Bible exclusively, either alone or in small groups at home. But, strangely, through such ?Bible reading,? they have reverted right back to the apostate doctrines that commentaries by Christendom?s clergy were teaching 100 years ago, and some have even returned to celebrating Christendom?s festivals again, such as the Roman Saturnalia of December 25! Jesus and his apostles warned against such lawless ones.?Matt. 24:11-13; Acts 20:28-30; 2 Pet. 2:1, 22.

Hmmm, people independently reading the "instructions" all reaching common conclusions that don't go along with the WTS?

It all gets down to the fact that the King will want to drive home the essential part of the message that he wants people to follow, and make it understandable enough for them...He does not necessarily care to impart knowledge on all the details on WHAT his reasoning is, what his grand scheme is, etc. What are the essential points of the message? Anyone who honestly reads it without being forced into a particular conformed viewpoint will find it. And in fact they do...

Check_Your_Premises

MJ,

Ok, I see. So If I said

"The king would probably want to write his message so that the main things he wanted would be easily understood and agreed upon by anyone who read it"

I have a feeling a dub would say, "and that is why we are right. All of these things are so obvious but we are the only ones who read it correctly"

I would reply "don't all Christian denominations agree on the fundamentals of God created us, the Bible is God's word, man fell into rebellion, God sent Christ to take our punishment, through Christ we can have a relationship with God"

A dub would then reply "but the other ones are not following the Bible, and not keeping His commandments?"

I would become possessed by Sam Kinison and say "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH YOU ARE IN A FREEKIN CULT!!!!"

sorry.

I mean I would say, "But the message is clear enough so all can agree on the main points, which all Christian denominations do"

Is that about right?

Check_Your_Premises

And if I point out that nobody would arrive at the jw conclusions independently she would probably say

"No of course not, we need the guidance of the jw. The Holy Spirit will not help us if we are not listening to God's Organization. Just like the ethiopian eunuch said, 'how could I know unless someone tells me' "

And then I reply

"AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH YOU ARE IN A FREEKIN CULT!!!"

sorry

What would I reply?

Check_Your_Premises

Sorry Old Soul,

The expanded analogy that would be designed to refute would not be for family consumption. It would be more for amusement here, inoculation of new book studies, and for detox of former dubs.

I would not use it to try to get my wife out of the org!!!

I am open to the religion wink-wink, I am not an opposer. Actually that technically is true. If someone walks on some water, makes some wine, predicts something that ACTUALLY happens, I am all ears.

I won't hold my breath for the faithful and discreet slave to impress me any time soon.

CYP

M.J.

Check Your Premises, check your premises...

All of these things are so obvious but we are the only ones who read it correctly

On what premise would a person claim that they were the only ones who understood the message correctly? Wouldn't it be suspicious if someone made the claim that they were the only ones who had the special ability to understand the king's instructions correctly?

"No of course not, we need the guidance of the jw. The Holy Spirit will not help us if we are not listening to God's Organization. Just like the ethiopian eunuch said, 'how could I know unless someone tells me' "

So...you don't think that anyone who just had a Bible and no other literature could understand it and be saved?

Was the Bible written for each and every one of us?

Why would the "King" leave instructions for each and every one of his people that could not be understood?

Why would he leave his people without "official guides" for 1800 years?

When these "official guides" came along, did they appoint themselves as such or did the "King" send them?

Check_Your_Premises

On what premise would a person claim that they were the only ones who understood the message correctly? Wouldn't it be suspicious if someone made the claim that they were the only ones who had the special ability to understand the king's instructions correctly?

Well the dubs would say their claim is valid because if you just read the bible, and go to all the meetings, and start a study, it will all become obvious to you. They are TFDS because the interpret the bible correctly. They interpret the bible correctly because they are TFDS. It is a circular argument, but it works for them.

THere is another angle there to. See, since what TFDS tells them about the Bible comes from God's channel, they believe it! Now they beleive it, they look at the bible and say, "TFDS must be Gods channel, what they teach is right here!" When something comes from authority, people don't quesiton it as much.

Have you ever tried to get a dub to admit that they only believe what they believe because TFDS told them to?! They will deny it very strongly! Then ask them how come everyone always agrees when TFDS changes it's mind? The best I got was, "well I don't know, it has never happened to me."

Check_Your_Premises

So...you don't think that anyone who just had a Bible and no other literature could understand it and be saved?

That is a good "reality test". I think most new dubs would say, yes. However their literature says the contrary. Of course once I showed the literature she would agree with that, and disagree with her previous opinion. (I have seen that phenomenon first hand)

Was the Bible written for each and every one of us?
Why would the "King" leave instructions for each and every one of his people that could not be understood?

Those are good and legitimate questions.

Why would he leave his people without "official guides" for 1800 years?
When these "official guides" came along, did they appoint themselves as such or did the "King" send them?

What are you trying to get at with the first one? Are you saying there are "official guides". For the second one, a dub will say "the king sent them because everything they say is backed up by the Bible!"

Help out, I need an ex-jw opinion: Explanation of why I can't be a dub

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