Help me set up my JW wife: What should I look for in a church?

by Check_Your_Premises 44 Replies latest jw experiences

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  M.J.

  I'm not sure if this is what you're aiming for but it could also be an opportunity to demonstrate that other religions have the same core doctrines as the dubs, yet they are just as condemned as the Church of Satan simply because they were not the ones that happened to be "appointed".

  For example, the Quakers, as blondie said, are against going to war

  The Christadelphians have always denied of the Trinity and immortal soul, believe in Paradise Earth, have always been opposed to war, government involvement, celebration of holidays, birthdays, etc. They were practicing all this way before the WTS jumped on board. They were closer to today's WTS teachings than the "Bible Students" were from 1914-1919.

  The present-day Bible Students also have very similar doctrines. Except they also happen to agree that the Gentile Times ended in 1914.

  The various Armstrong "Church of God" sects also have very similar doctrines to the JWs.

  In any case, I think you would do quite well to send letters to "cultic" churches as well and see how they respond! That way your wife can see the similarities between their outlook and the WTS's!

  You'll have to word it just right so they won't feel the need to evade your questions though. You know that if you asked the WTS "do you teach you are the only people that will be saved?", they'd respond in vague generalities and talk about past generations being resurrected. They'd never mention that every living person outside their organization will be killed in the big A...Just some food for thought
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  ezekiel3

  You could tease her into a conversation by

  Looking for a church without a pagan foundation.

  She will likely pipe up that JWs practice "pure" worship without pagan influences.

  This gives you the opportunity to expose Russel's masonic roots and the egyptian pyramid worship that was the original BASIS for 1914.

  Russell and Pyramids -- Russell introduced occultism into his religion by teaching that the pyramids in Egypt are divine omens. He taught that they contained prophetic secrets known only to him. So convinced was Russell of their mystic power, and his exclusive knowlege of their secrets, he and his followers spent a small fortune trecking to Egypt to observe them. (see photo below-Russell second from left) According to Russell, only by reading his books could one understand the pyramid mysteries and how they fit into the "Divine Plan." Thy Kingdom Come, Series III, p. 342, 1897 edition) Then in the 1916 edition it was changed to read: "We find it to be 3457 inches, symbolizing 3457 years....This calculation shows that the close of 1914 will be the beginning of the time of trouble...." Russell's pyramid actually grew 41 inches in 19 years! Source: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/2919/russell.html

  

  Watchtower's pyramid memorial, with cross and crown emblem and capstone. Note Russell's headstone in background. Source: http://www.freeminds.org/history/cemetary.htm

  Rutherford "cleansed" most of this crap but replaced it with odd rantings about aluminum and africans.

  Aluminum in the Golden Age (now Awake!): http://quotes.watchtower.ca/aluminum.htm

  No. But... what the Ethiopian cannot do for himself God could readily do for him. The difference between the races of men... have long been arguments against the solidarity of the human family. The doctrine of restitution has also raised the question. How could all men be brought to perfection and which color of skin was the original? The answer is now provided. God can change the Ethiopian's skin in his own due time... Julius Jackson, of New Frankfort, Montana, a negro boy of nine years, began to grow white in September, 1901, and is now fully nine-tenths white. He assures us that this is no whitish skin disease; but that the new white skin is as healthy as that of any white boy, and that the changed boy has never been sick and never has taken medicines (Zion's Watch Tower, February 15, 1904: 52-53). Source: http://www.premier1.net/~raines/discrimination.html

  Source: http://www.premier1.net/~raines/discrimination.html Read the whole page!
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  Carmel

  While you're at it consider a faith that is "inclusive" rather than "exclusive". One that is relavent for the age we live in yet is linked to all the religions of the past, one that endorses scientific method rather than is at war with it. I could go on and on, but you get the point, I hope. Here's a link: http://www.bahai.org/

  carmel
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  SixofNine

  I would send questions to several, but definitly include the Quakers. Also, be sure to submit the list of questions to the local congregation's PO, or, if she would see it as a "set up" that he wouldn't play along (due to knowing you already), send them to the PO of a congregation nearby that doesn't know you or your situation. The contrast between the JW's and Christendom will likely favor Christendom.
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  TheListener

  You might also do some research online to show the growth of various denominations over the past 10 years or so. It's surprising that most of them have had increases, many have had much more increase than the witnesses.

  Also, when you speak with her on any subject; and I'll assume that you must run into at least some problems over holidays and etc. Ask her to be reasonable. That's a powerful word in the witness vocabulary. Before any subject is discussed you have to have all your ducks in a row. I've found that it's ok for the dub mate to research the WTS cd but for some reason they want you to have all your answers right in your head. Try to anticipate what subject might come up, for instance Father's Day is nearing, and have all your "reasonable" information handy. Know the origin of it (from multiple sources); what the WT has said about it; what the WT has said about things with pagan origins (several articles discuss that it's not the origin but the present day feeling). Basically you must know every argument she'll make, via the WT library and be ready to counter it very calmly and reasonably. She may or may not listen, but over time she'll be impressed with your knowledge and calmness.

  I know your wife is newly baptized so she's probably really strict and super zealous right now. But, in time that will wear off and she'll become a drone like everyone else. A lot of new ones put a real wedge between their families, friends and themselves during the first year or so after baptism.

  I guess this isn't so much about other churches, but it was when I started writing. Sorry.
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  jgnat

  Wherever the JW's claim to be at the forefront, there is somebody else doing it better.

  The JW's claim that they have evidence of Jehovah's blessing because of their growth. In their talks, they unfailingly forget to mention other denominations and churches that are growing. http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html

  The JW's claim that they are the only ones preaching God?s word (door-to-door) in the world today. I am sure they would like to forget about the Mormons. The Mormons also have higher growth numbers than the JW's. http://www.lds.org/newsroom/page/0,15606,4034-1---10-168,00.html

  The JW's also fail to mention that many churches are actively seeking out the lost. They are conducting research, polling new members, and finding innovative solutions. Admittedly, they use different methods of outreach than the JW's. http://www.missionportland.org/reports-assimilation.htm

  The JW's are very proud of their literature distribution numbers. http://www.jw-media.org/newsroom/index.htm?content=growth.htm

  Their primary journal, The Watchtower, has an international circulation of 25,203,000, in 147 languages. It has the largest circulation of any religious journal and is by far the world's most widely translated magazine.

  The Gideons beat them out in sheer volume, and they stick to bible distribution. http://www.gideons.org/

  The Gideons International is placing and distributing more than 59,000,000 Scriptures worldwide. To God be the glory! This averages one million copies of the Word of God placed every seven days, or 112 per minute!

  The JW's claim that they alone have the moral high ground on purity. Their claim is based on the high percentage of members who are removed from the congregation every year. A typical talk then runs through a list of recent scandal in other churches.

  What they forget to mention that any sign of internal corruption (i.e. www.silentlambs.org is quickly swept under the carpet. They should be learning from the example of the Catholic church, which is paying dearly for doing just that.

  They also neglect to mention movements like ?True Love Waits? where teenagers are vowing celibacy before marriage. http://www.lifeway.com/tlw/

  Youth are signing online to provide 24-7 prayer around the world. http://www.24-7prayer.com/cm/

  The JW's claim they are closest to first-century practice, because of their witnessing, their gathering together to worship, and their elimination of "pagan" Trinitarian practices. What they fail to tell the congregation is that literature distribution, purpose-built meeting places, door-to-door style witnessing, and centralized governance were unknown in the early church. Also, the JW's fail to mention that early Christians were ahead of their time for providing equality for women and children. Before the Christians, women were property. Somehow, women's equality has stalled in the Watchtower Society. http://www.equalitydepot.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=640

  literature distribution - the printing press had not yet been invented. Paul?s letters were hand-delivered and read to an audience that was mostly illiterate.

  purpose-built meeting places - Christians preached in village squares, and met at the synagogue and each other?s homes

  door-to-door - In Middle-eastern cultures, strangers did not visit other households uninvited. What the disciples did was go from town to town and house to house. That is, they would start preaching in the village square, and when invited, go and eat at a local?s home. As there were no purpose-built meeting places at that time, interested villagers would gather at the host?s house to hear what the preacher had to say. Remember, there were no modern methods of communication. http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/pliny1.html

  Home churches are an attempt to follow first-century practice of governance, far closer than the Jehovah's Witnesses. http://www.christianquest.org/CQ-Files/Church.html

  Cell churches also imitate first-century practice of governance. The cell churches are also a fast-growing group, far outstripping the JW's steady 2% growth. http://members.tripod.com/celycecomiskey/ten_largest_cell_churcehs.htm
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  Billygoat

  CYP,

  I think Badger is a Quaker, perhaps you could PM him? It's a religion I don't know much about, but honestly...haven't heard anything bad about it.

  I'm a Christian as well. I have found the churches I'm happiest and most at peace with follow Jesus two laws: Love God. Love your neighbor. The fruit of true Christianity? Love. I've found that in Bible, Baptist, and Catholic churches. I don't believe one religion has the truth. But some people in all religions just "get it", which is love. That's what I consider truth. The most amazing thing to me is that all the churches I've been a part of, do NOT get all up in arms about you leaving for another religion. They're tickled that you found some place that feeds your soul. Not once have I been shunned. And not once have I heard a bad thing from the pulpit(s) about other churches. I know at one time in the history of these churches they probably did that, but not today. Perhaps the JWs are in their own little vacuum when it comes to what they "think" other churches are doing from the pulpit.

  Just my two thoughts.

  Andi
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  Check_Your_Premises

  Thanks for all your thoughts. I always get such good ideas from all you former dubs. I am eternally grateful.

  CYP
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  OldSoul

  CYP, your wife probably won't credit any information from any source other than the F&DS (pronounced: eff-in dee-ess, take from it what you will).

  You will be more effective inviting a "brother" or two from the local congo over for a discussion to help you resolve some difficulties you are having in understanding your wife's religion. Make sure your wife is present, tell her you would feel more comfortable if she was there. Then question them in front of her, continually reminding them that you want Scriptural answers.

  We'll help out with stuff to ask, and gladly. She will see first hand the lack of insight from these "respected" ones. She will almost certainly ask elders over and, if prompted to look for it, she will be blown away by their circumlocution. You might express some concerns ahead of time that you won't get direct, plainspoken answers to your questions. She will reassure you that you will.

  In my opinion, watching such a scene unfold from a third-party perspective (fly on the wall) will be far more convincing for her than any direct attack on her newfound beliefs.

  Respectfully,
  OldSoul
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  Check_Your_Premises

  Good points Old Soul,

  But actually that is more of a different topic then what I am going for here. What I am looking for on this thread is DEFENSE. I am being challenged directly for attending other churches. I simply lack the ability/knowledge to defend myself or the churches I am attending. I can offer a strong reason why I as a conscientous Christian do not feel comfortable with TFDS doctrine (just a perception, not a judgement), but I can't articulate why other churches are not worse.

  This is not meant to be an attack on the jw, it is a defense of my decision. I would never attack the jw to my jw wife, that would be counter productive.

  What you are talking about is more of a "stump the chump". I may employ that method at some point, but I still am thinking about the strategies involved. MJ is actually thinking about using that approach.

  I actually am thinking of using a different twist to the "stump the chump" approach. I was thinking of doing it without my wife present. Then when my wife asks me about the study afterwards I will tell her what the questions and answers were. I think this might be more effective because I feel if she is present it would be easier for her to choose sides and put up her jw shield. By asking me she is naturally going to be more receptive to what I tell her. She won't be in cult mode so much. I may be wrong. Just a theory.

  The additional benefit to this method is that if you catch a brother who is pretty good, he might kick your ass! By using my method you could limit your wifes exposure to your ass kicking. I think seeing a brother whip my ass would really reinforce her idea that I don't know what I am talking about, and that there is really nothing to this apostate stuff. A single incident could provide her all the cover she needs to write off anything else I might bring up.