Governing Body claims title to Kingdom Halls and Assembly Halls

by garybuss 57 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  blondie

  Then a letter was read that stated Circuit Overseers are now in charge legally of all properties.

  I would check into that. Legal according to Canadian law? Ask a laywer to check into that.

  Blondie

  (I know a little about US law; but nothing about Canadian)

  I would think that the non-profit corporation papers held by the congregations had to have been updated. Who are the 3 brothers that form that corporation (assuming it is similar to the US). I will tell you that the BOE are singuarly stupd when it comes to these things. Only a threat from the IRS got many BOEs to get their paperwork in order.
• 

  observador

  Gary, here's my take on this:
  
  Legally, KHs belong to the WTS, for all practical purposes; and it has been that way ever since I was old enough to say "mom, I wanna go potty".
  
  In Brazil, they also have a scheme similar to the US to hold control of the congregation property, namely, they form a "not for profit corporation". In Brazil, they call it "Associacao Juridica"; it's exactly the same $hit; only different names.
  
  I think we are focusing too much on the legal aspect of it, though. What I always understood about the "Master's belongings" was that those were "spiritual assets". Now they're making very clear that it includes PROPERTIES and Kingdom Halls are EXPLICITLY among them. This is new to me!
  
  The fact they're making this clear may be an indication that it has become more common for congregations to request the transfer of title deeds to the congregation (as "apocalypse" demonstrated in his post), and they're trying to send a clear message that this won't be done; "so, don't even try" could be the message they're trying to send...
  
  Observador.
• 

  Mary

  Blondie said: the US government does not see it that way. Nonprofit corporations do not own anything. That is the premise that allows them to be tax-free.

  OK, that blew me away......how the hell can the WTS own all the property and buildings that it does in the USA if nonprofit corporations aren't allowed to actually own anything??
• 

  wiegel

  I guess I never studied enough - I ALWAYS thought the "belongings" were the spiritual activities, the preaching work, bible students, publishers, all of the "works". Wonder why they bother having special contribution boxes - ie "local needs", "WWW", etc. Seems that they just take it all and do whatever suits their investments best. What a dope I was. If I were still a witness today and I found out that our hall ($500,000 mortgage plus interest) went to the society after it was paid for, I would have another bone to pick with them. Why borrow from them? Once they own it, do they then "rent" it back to the congregation? Fleece, fleece, fleece - lots of cold and naked sheep - hmmm, must be their own fault.

  trudy
• 

  frankiespeakin

  Let me pose a question for those that know the law:

  Say the elders that made up the cooperation that held the title to the KH, sold it with out any notification to the Society. Could they then form another nonprophet cooperation and put the money in that,, thus keeping it from going to the WT?
• 

  Golden Girl

  Frankie..you are right according to what the WTBTS did. They set up seperate non- profit organizations imitating what the Church of Scientology did. They were being sued big time so they just moved their assets from one non profit org. to another to avoid a big payout. The WTBTS saw this and followed suit!

  Who said they didn't know what they were doing.......protecting their ASSets...............

  And They collect rent each time there is an assembly at the Assembly hall!..The one over by my house goes for around $1,500. a shot!|
  And it is used a lot!

  Snoozy...
• 

  garybuss

  
  I worked for a USA non profit as a director for 9 years and I was vice president when I left. The non profit owned property just like a C corp except they just didn't pay any income tax on exempt income. The corporation I worked for owned maybe 5 million dollars in property. Plus, I'm a real estate broker and I see non profits owning property all over the place. So Blondie, I'm not sure what you're referring to.
  
  The non profit refers to the IRS tax status, nothing else.
  
  In the USA, IF the Society is only the banker, the deed should be registered in the name of the owners at the local court house and the Society would file a mortgage on the property at the register of deeds office at the owner's local court house. When the mortgage is paid the lender files a satisfaction of mortgage and the cloud of the mortgage is lifted off the title. Both documents stay in the file at the register of deeds.
  
  IF the Society takes the deed to the Kingdom Hall as deeded owner of the property, then the Society is the legal owner of the property. It's easy enough to check. IF the local congregation owns the Hall by means of a holding company, that's also easy to check. Register of deeds files are open to the public. Special documents impacting transfer of property such as purchase options and leases are also filed with the deed and open to the public.
  
  Non profits sell property to individuals and for profit corporations all the time here. The proceeds of those sales are not taxable as long as the corporation still qualifies as a non profit.

  I think there's a wood chuck in the wood pile.
  
  
• 

  frankiespeakin

  Gary,

  That's interesting. What do you think, is it possible if the Governing Body lost in a class action suit and had to sell everything to pay it off, would they be able to force the selling of all the Kingdom halls? I don't think so but just wondering?
• 

  blondie

  All I can say, Gary, is if the WTS owned the 2 congregations/KHs on the 2 recent occasions I mentioned above, then the sale of the assets the WTS wanted would have happened. What did happen was nothing. The congregation that holds the territory on which the building sits still has those assets and has not sold them because the corporate officers/elders don't want to. The assets if sold revert to the corporation not to any individuals in the congregation nor the corporate officers. I am surprised that the WTS did not remove those elders and replace them with more cooperative ones. It has something to say about the influence of those elders perhaps.

  I still maintain that legally, the WTS does not hold title deed and only if the individual congregation is dissolved do the assets revert to them as the parent corporation.

  In the end, it remains that if you donate to a non-profit corporation, that those assets become the property of that corporation and you the donator do not become a shareholder in the non-profit corporation.

  I have seen the WTS step in and dissolve congregations in the blink of an eye. So I know that the real power lies in the WTS. If a congregation were to go rogue now, the WTS would do just that, dissolve the congregation and the assets would revert to the WTS.

  So, what I see in summary is this:

  Individuals in the congregation do not own the assets, building, property, etc. They have donated to a non-profit corporation that uses those assets according to the laws of non-profit corporations. They do not become shareholders in a corporation expecting to receive a portion of the proceeds if those assets are disposed of.

  The elders/corporate officers do not own either being able to profit individually from their group actions.

  The WTS does not have direct control over the assets until the dissolution of the non-profit corporation which reverts to them in their role as another non-profit corporation.

  What I do see is the mind control the WTS exercises over most JWs. Disobeying the WTS is the same as disobeying God.

  Perhaps the problem lies in my use of the word, ownership. No individuals own anything. All properties, monies, etc., revert to a impersonal entity, no individuals or group of individuals.
• 

  garybuss

  
  No doubt the donations made to the Watch Tower Corporation on any level are as gone as they would be if donated to the Red Cross. I guess what we don't know is, if all Halls are owned by corporations and if there is a revert to clause in all ownership documents.
  
  I've heard of elders manipulating assets and tricking people out of their property. I have no documentation of elders profiting from sale of donated assets specifically. I'd like to see some.
  
  Blondie, do you have any documentation that shows a revert to clause on a Kingdom Hall deed? Or is the existence of the revert to clause on the Kingdom Hall deeds just hearsay? If you have a copy of the clause on a deed I'd like a copy.
  
  If it's real it should be easy to get. If the clause isn't recorded with the deed it would be very possible (and very easy here) to sell a Kingdom Hall with owners of record signatures. If the clause is recorded it will be easy to get a copy. If Watch Tower Society headquarters own the property, they will be listed on the deed at the local register of deeds as owner of record.
  
  Another way they could affect a revert to clause is to file a second mortgage on the Kingdom Hall at the local register of deeds. That would also be easy to get a copy of. Another way to make a revert to mechanism would be a mechanics lien. Those are messy and need to be renewed, but property can't transfer with a lien on it until the lien is released.
  
  They could deed the property as being owned by the local non profit as owner #1 and Brooklyn as owner #2 with limited POA to owner #1.
  
  There's a number of ways to do it but no invisible way.
  
  I have no comment on the deed issue in Canada since I'm not familiar with property law in Canada except to say that I doubt the Society is holding a deed as security for a loan rather than a mortgage.
  
  Here in Dakota a deed is simply a way to transfer ownership of property but it's not title to the property. The title is the registration of the deed and the record of ownership at the local court house. It takes a new deed to transfer that ownership. Deeds are simple. They're not like a will.
  
  My hope is this thread will attract the attention of someone willing to share some particular information. Thanks for all the posts.