I think that God was created by extremely arrogant and jealous men who would not be satisfied until everyone did exactly what they want.
Every god is created in the image of the one who worships it.
What is up with God requiring vindication?
by M.J. 16 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Elsewhere
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Check_Your_Premises
Tetra,
The danger of analogies....
is they only hold up for so long.
So you are criticizing the concept of a God that gives free will and then destroys those who exercise it in a that God doesn't like?
A little off topic, but I am sure MJ wouldn't mind a short aside.
I believe that God created us in His image. To me, that means we share His nature, which is the ability to create. In my mind, the ability to create and having a free-will go hand in hand. However to have a free will and creativity means we can conceive of the idea of going against the will of our Creator.
So what is His will ultimately. It is that we acknowledge His (and therefore our) place in the universe. The other thing that He wills is for us to treat eachother as we wish to be treated. That is really about it. So our creative nature and free-will were meant to be given free reign beyond that.
There are those that would say that having any restrictions at all goes contradictory to the idea of a free will. But when you really think about it, these "restrictions" are not really a sanction on our freedoms. Rather they are meant to provide an order that allows our free will and creativity to flourish. For example some may consider traffic laws to be an infringement on their freedoms. But without those laws, it is unlikely that they would have the ability to even travel a short distance. So which situation really allows the individual more freedom? Are we more free if we all get to drive however we want, or are we more free if there are some shared rules that produces an ordered system which , more times than not, allows us to reach our destination safely.
Now what do I think of the concept of a God that destroys the disobedient? Well, I guess that isn't a very loving thought by itself. But we do have to consider that by being disobedient they are refusing to live according to the natural order (which is God is the boss, rather than themselves) and/or they are refusing to do to others as they would have done to them. Both of those violations go together to produce all sorts of misery. I do think it is quite loving for God to finally step in and prevent those folks from continuing to harm others. I think "justice" is the word that comes to mind. I often wonder if paradise isn't all that wonderful and perfect like we imagine, maybe there just arent' any a-holes to deal with. Maybe we still lose our car-keys, but at least we don't have to worry about some a-hole keying up our paint job.
Or maybe I am some soft-headed boob, who has some pathological need to believe in God. What's next, the tooth fairy! I can't prove God exists of course. Nobody can. But just because something can't proven, doesn't mean it isn't true. And even though I can't prove God exists, neither can you prove He doesn't. I agree that the burden of proof would ultimately have to belong with an omnipotent being. But to completely refuse that there could possibly be a Creator, leaves you with an awful lot of explaining to do as well.
Hope you don't think I am taking after you. You asked some good questions, I am simply responding with all due respect. People get so touchy around here!
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tetrapod.sapien
Hope you don't think I am taking after you. You asked some good questions, I am simply responding with all due respect.
hey CYP,
no worries. a little back-and-forth is always fun in good company.
Well, I guess that isn't a very loving thought by itself; But we do have to consider that by being disobedient they are refusing to live according to the natural order (which is God is the boss, rather than themselves)
i see an implicit assertion in this statement, that would make perfect sense to a Christian, but wouldn't make sense to others like Muslims, Buddhists, Atheists etc. It is that there is a "natural order" to begin with, and that the christian god defines it. to me, it's a moot point of sorts. that "we" are right about the natural order of things, and "others" are wrong.
how would you describe this "natural order" to a buddhist? or anyone who doesn't follow the bible? can it explain (for god) suffering, to someone like me? saying to a non-believer that god requires vindication because he says so in his holy book, doesn't really help in answering the question to someone like me.
as for getting into the existence of god, i am affraid it would send this thread spiraling uncontrolably off topic. so perhaps in another thread, in another time.
cheers,
TS
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sonnyboy
Every god is created in the image of the one who worships it.
What does that say about people who worship cows?
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Check_Your_Premises
to me, it's a moot point of sorts. that "we" are right about the natural order of things, and "others" are wrong.
Well I didn't get into all sorts of details about HOW we worship that deity, or what the story of that Diety in relation to mankind if that's what you mean.
I am more of an adherent to "Mere Christianity" in reference to C.S. Lewis book of the same name. For instance, is the world a hole because a talking snake tempted some dumb bimbo into eating an apple? You aren't going to get me to go to that mat on that one.
I do think there is a natural order in the sense that there is a Creator, there is a natural law that we all understand and expect from others, which is that we should treat others as we wish to be treated. I don't think mankind has ever been without those two ideas.
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Check_Your_Premises
a little back-and-forth is always fun in good company
I sure wish everyone could take it that way. I get a kick out of challenging my most deeply held beliefs.
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M.J.
So actually the purpose of me requiring my children to say thank you is not for me. It is for them.
I tend to view it in the same way. But I don't usually have the skills to articulate the way I think sometimes.
Check out what Romans 9:10-24 says (NLT):
This passage paints a picture of God's total sovereignty over all, good and bad. Not exactly the image of a God that had things go haywire on him or having been foiled by the devil.This son was our ancestor Isaac. When he grew up, he married Rebekah, who gave birth to twins. But before they were born, before they had done anything good or bad, she received a message from God. (This message proves that God chooses according to his own plan, not according to our good or bad works.) She was told, "The descendants of your older son will serve the descendants of your younger son." In the words of the Scriptures, "I loved Jacob, but I rejected Esau."
What can we say? Was God being unfair? Of course not! For God said to Moses,
"I will show mercy to anyone I choose,
and I will show compassion to anyone I choose."So receiving God's promise is not up to us. We can't get it by choosing it or working hard for it. God will show mercy to anyone he chooses.
For the Scriptures say that God told Pharaoh, "I have appointed you for the very purpose of displaying my power in you, and so that my fame might spread throughout the earth." S o you see, God shows mercy to some just because he wants to, and he chooses to make some people refuse to listen.
Well then, you might say, "Why does God blame people for not listening? Haven't they simply done what he made them do?"
No, don't say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to criticize God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who made it, "Why have you made me like this?" When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn't he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into? God has every right to exercise his judgment and his power, but he also has the right to be very patient with those who are the objects of his judgment and are fit only for destruction. He also has the right to pour out the riches of his glory upon those he prepared to be the objects of his mercy--even upon us, whom he selected, both from the Jews and from the Gentiles.