Leolaia
I am not yet convinced. Sorry. Nor do I think I ever will be.
I think I am sick and tired of debating trinity and all that. I just wanted to post what I believe makes sense. It's not only JW's who believe in that, because they quoted other people.
We'll have to agree to disagree.
It's hard to explain your beliefs when the vast majority of Christians who believe in something very strongly when you don't yourself... :(
Doesn't mean you've "hit me" with good points like as if it's something I can't explain. I think I am a bit tired of trinitarian debates...
Watchtower Blotch of Alpha and Omega interpretation
by Ticker 29 Replies latest watchtower bible
-
inquirer
-
inquirer
I will re-read what you said though.
I mean. I don't want to be like the Watchtower and ignore people or shun people. All you people can believe what you like. -
inquirer
leolaia,
Point #5 is almost embarassing:
(5) At Revelation 22:13, the Alpha and Omega is also said to be “the first and the last,” which expression is applied to Jesus at Revelation 1:17, 18. Similarly, the expression “apostle” is applied both to Jesus Christ and to certain ones of his followers. But that does not prove that they are the same person or are of equal rank, does it? (Heb. 3:1)
___
Inquirer.
I don't agree with you that it's embarassing.
I don't see a problem with Jehovah and Jesus being the Alpha and the Omega. They were both at the beginning. Jehovah was RIGHT at the beginning. But Jesus was at the beginning of time concerning human affairs. He saw the first human, Adam. So certainly from that point of view he can be alpha and omega. -
Leolaia
inquirer....To respond to the comments you made, it was indeed a poor point for the Society to make because "apostle" is a title that most frequently refers to human disciples sent by Christ (and in analogy, Christ was referred to once as the superlative "apostle" sent by the Father), and technically could be unlimited in number, whereas "the first and the last" is a title that implicitly denotes divine uniqueness. The analogy is thus quite inappropriate. Instead of appealing to a completely unrelated title, they should have examined the actual usage of "first and the last" outside of Revelation, indeed in its very source (Deutero-Isaiah) which used it precisely as a claim of Yahweh's uniqueness. Your comment seeks accommodate a unitarian perspective by interpreting the title as having two different applications (so that Christ is "first" in a different way than God is "first") but this (1) imposes an ad hoc understanding of the title upon the text, (2) ignores what the title meant in the source material which is itself alluded to in the text, and (3) unnecessarily complicates things by giving the title a dual interpretation. If we are led more by the text, we are led instead to Isaiah 40-48 which use "first and the last" (cf. 41:4, 44:6, 48:12) as just one of many ways to talk about Yahweh's uniqueness and eternity as God:
"Who could have advised the spirit of Yahweh, what counsellor could have instructed him? Whom has he consulted to enlighten him...To whom could you liken God? What image could you contrive of him?" (Isaiah 40:12-18).
"Who is the author of this deed, if not he who calls the generations from the begininng? I, Yahweh, who am the first and shall be with the last" (Isaiah 41:4).
"Yahweh, he who created the heavens and spread them out, who gave shape to the earth and what comes from it, who gave breath to its people and life to the creatures that move in it...My name is Yahweh, I will not yield my glory to another, nor my honor to idols...From the beginning I have been silent, I have kept quiet, held myself in check" (Isaiah 42:5, 8, 14).
"You yourselves are my witnesses, it is Yahweh who speaks, my servants whom I have chosen, that men may know and believe me and understand that it is I. No god was formed before me, nor will be after me. I, I am Yahweh, there is no other savior but me....You are my witnesses, it is Yahweh who speaks, and I, I am your God, I am he from eternity" (Isaiah 43:10-13).
"Thus says Israel's king, and his redeemer Yahweh Sabaoth, I am the first and the last, there is no other god besides me. Who is like me? Let him stand up and speak, let him show himself and argue it out before me. Who from the very beginning foretold the future?... You are my witnesses, is there any other God besides me? There is no Rock, I know of none" (Isaiah 44:6-8).
"I, myself, Yahweh, made all things, I alone spread out the heavens. When I gave the earth shape, did anyone help me?" (Isaiah 44:24).
"I am Yahweh, unrivalled; there is no other god besides me...I am Yahweh, unrivalled. I form the light and create the dark. I make good fortune and create calamity, it is I, Yahweh, who does all this....It was I who made the earth and created man who is on it. It was I who spread out the heavens with my hands and now give orders to their whole array" (Isaiah 45:5, 7, 12).
"With you alone is God, and he has no rival; there is no other god...Yes, thus says Yahweh, creator of the heavens, who is God, who formed the earth and made it, who set it firm, created it no chaos, but a place to be lived in...Am I not Yahweh? There is no other god besides me, a God of integrity and a savior....Before me every knee shall bend by me every tongue shall swear saying, 'From Yahweh alone come victory and strength.' " (Isaiah 45:14, 18, 21-23).
"To whom can you compare me, equate me, to whom claim I am similar, or comparable?... I am God unrivalled, God who has no like. From the beginning I foretold the future, and predicted beforehand what it is to be" (Isaiah 46:5, 9-10).
"I am the first, I am also the last. My hand laid the foundations of the earth and my right hand spread out the heavens. I summon them and they all come together... From the beginning I have never spoken to you obscurely, and all the time these things have been happening, I have been present" (Isaiah 48:12-13, 16).
By calling Jesus the "first and the last", the author of Revelation is evoking the wording in Isaiah 40-48 which emphasizes over and over that God is unique, that he alone is the first and the last, that he cannot be compared to anyone, that he alone created the world, that he had no one beside him to help him, and so forth. It is inconceivable in this context that there would have been two "first and lasts". If those reading Revelation thought that Christ had a role in creation (as the proto-orthodox believed) or divine in any substantial way (as was especially believed by the proto-gnostics), the use of the title "the first and the last" would have led those who realized the title's origin in Isaiah 40-48 to the inescapable conclusion that Christ was God. The bulk of my last post, in fact, set forth some of the ways in which Revelation applied many other divine titles and descriptors to Christ in a binitarian fashion. Christ and his Father were clearly distinguished from each other in some ways, and blurred in other ways, with the application of the titles "First and the Last", "King of Kings and Lord of Lords", "Alpha and Omega", etc. to Jesus effecting an indirect claim that Christ was fully divine in the same way that his Father was. Yet it would also grossly overstate matters to say that Revelation has any sort of systematic theology. Rather, it somewhat naively characterizes Christ in fully divine terms without working out any of the issues, or even any sort of consistency (as would be expected, if the book has composite origins).
-
Narkissos
so that Christ is "first" in a different way than God is "first"
Which actually would make him second, not first.
"First" and "last" being temporal notions, any distinction between "first before time" (an oxymoron per se) and "first in time" is moot, to say the least.
-
Leolaia
Narkissos....Right. The only way around it is to posit a "group" that is "first", but that flatly goes against the point of Deutero-Isaiah, which is that God is not the member of any group but is completely unique.
BTW, I think the idea of "first" and "last" in Deutero-Isaiah is not so much in terms of temporality but in relational terms vis-a-vis God and the world. That is to say, God is first because he brings the world and those in it into existence (as Creator) and he is last because he can and does bring things to a finish (as Consummator). I think this is the point because God's role as Creator is frequently mentioned in Deutero-Isaiah, as well as his role as destroyer and ender of kings, nature, iniquity, and even the heavens (cf. 40:7, "The grass withers, the flower fades when the breath of Yahweh blows on them"; 40:22-23, "He reduces princes to nothing, he annihilates the rulers of the world"; 41:2, "His sword makes dust of them and his bow scatters them like straw"; 41:11, "They who fought against you shall be destroyed and perish"; 43:25, "It is I who must blot out everything"; 44:22, "I have dispelled your faults like a cloud, your sins like a mist"; 51:6, "The heavens will vanish like smoke, the earth wear out like a garment, and its inhabitants die like vermin").
The author of Revelation puts an interesting spin on the title by recasting it as "Alpha and Omega", which is suggestive of God as embracing everything, as the letters of alpha and omega embrace and contain the whole alphabet in between.
-
Narkissos
BTW, I think the idea of "first" and "last" in Deutero-Isaiah is not so much in terms of temporality but in relational terms vis-a-vis God and the world. That is to say, God is first because he brings the world and those in it into existence (as Creator) and he is last because he can and does bring things to a finish (as Consummator).
Still in Deutero-Isaiah this is only expressed in narrative, i.e. temporal terms: what Yhwh has done and what he will do. The text doesn't abstract timeless causality (if such a thing is really thinkable, which I doubt) from this temporal frame -- we do.
Btw, I think a common feature in NT Christology is positing Jesus as the relational or economical face of God. He is "God-to-us". Switching to a spatial metaphor, he is the outward face of a central God or the inner face of an encompassing God. Much of the Revelation play, such as the Alpha and Omega ambiguities or the "Lamb in the middle of the throne" can be understood from this perspective -- an economical, not (yet) ontological one.
-
robhic
But what about right before Rev 1:8? It says:
Rev 1:7
Behold, he cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they that pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn over him. Even so, Amen.Who pierced jehovah?
Robert
-
Leolaia
robhic....The author loosely applies OT texts referring to Yahweh to Jesus, not just the examples mentioned already. Here is another clear example in Revelation of material from Deutero-Isaiah (referring only to Yahweh) being applied to Jesus:
Isaiah 49:10-13: "They will never hunger or thirst, scorching wind and sun shall never plague them; for he who pities them will lead them and guide them to springs of water... For Yahweh consoles his peoples and takes pity on those who are afflicted".
Revelation 7:16-17: "They will never hunger or thirst again; neither the sun nor scorching wind will ever plague them, because the Lamb who is at the Throne will be their shepherd and will lead them to springs of living water".
Here is another especially relevant example involving the Alpha and the Omega:
1 Chronicles 28:9: "And you, Solomon my son, know the God of your father and serve him with a whole heart and with a willing mind, for Yahweh searches all hearts and understands every plan and thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you, but if you forsake him, he will cast you off forever".
Psalm 62:11-12: "It is for God to be strong, for you Lord to be loving; and you yourself repay man as his works deserve".
Jeremiah 17:10: "I Yahweh search the heart and test the mind, to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds".
Revelation 2:8, 18-23: "Here is the message of the First and the Last, who was dead and come to life again ... the words of the Son of God .... And all the churches will know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve' ".
Revelation 22:12-13: "Very soon now, I shall be with you again, bringing the reward to every man according to what he deserves. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End".
And a few other striking ones:
2 Chronicles 16:9: "For the eyes of Yahweh range throughout the earth to strengthen those whose hearts are fully committed to him. You have done a foolish thing, and from now on you will be at war".
Psalm 11:4: "Yahweh is in his holy temple; Yahweh’s throne is in heaven; his eyes see, his eyelids test the children of man".
Zechariah 4:6, 10: "Not by might and not by power, but by my spirit, says Yahweh Sabaoth .... These seven eyes are the eyes of Yahweh; they range throughout the whole earth".
Revelation 5:6: "Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth".
2 Samuel 22:29: "For you are my lamp, O Yahweh, and my God lightens my darkness ".
Isaiah 60:19-20: "The sun shall be no more your light by day, nor for brightness shall the moon give you light; but Yahweh will be your everlasting light, and your God will be your glory. Your sun shall no more go down, nor your moon withdraw itself; for Yahweh will be your everlasting light, and your days of mourning shall be ended".
Revelation 21:22-24: "And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb".
-
frankiespeakin
Don't mess with a linguistic scholar! When it come to interpreting scripture you will lose everytime guaranteed.