Death of innocent people

by Norm 54 Replies latest jw friends

Spook

And another thing...
Why is there no existing outcry against making the war a "war on terror." Why is the regime not being held accountable to define terrorism so that we the people can decide if that is or is not the case when warfare is being conducted in our name.
"Enemies of freedom" is not a definition of a terrorist. That is a disingenious ploy to avoid the issues. Terrorism is the unlawful use of force to promote the will to an agenda. Whose laws will we agree on to define this? Our own? Well then, we have created a self-righteous tautology of a war.
If we make a world where suffering is institutionalized, where that is permitted, where pain and privation mar half of the inflated population, there will be no end to war. The world will rise up. It doesn't matter how many guns or bombs or battleships you have. It doesn't matter how high your walls are or how swords or catapults or whatever you have. Fire will fill the night, and the streets will run with blood. Humanism can not be ground in the gears of production and consumption. Freedom cannot stand tall on the backs of the broken and trampled masses.
LittleToe

Tetra:
I caught it, but given that you've been tolerant of my faux pas', I thought it only gentlemanly not to bring it to your attention
Besides, Dawkins can bitchslap you himself LOL
Spook:
Taking Social Studies 101, this year?
tetrapod.sapien

Why is there no existing outcry against making the war a "war on terror."

because the definition would include their actions in iraq and their foreign policy. so, in that way, they are using their brain (singular). it's like the WTS hijacking the definition of apostate. why do you think the US won't let Farley Mowatt into their country? they disfellowshiped him from america. and that Noam Chomsky, is already an american apostate. ironically, he has more in common with the founding fathers of the country, than any of these war mongering donkeys and elephants do. (that's right: Kennedy and Clinton were terrorists too).
Besides, Dawkins can bitchslap you himself LOL
ROFL! (...awww, man, my sides hurt now).
Norm

There is an almost unbelievable hypocrisy regarding what is going on in the so-called war on terror. As one of the posters (Spook) here pointed out, that there is really no meaningful definition on what terror is or means, because if such a definition was made it would no doubt include what the US and its allies are doing in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere and of course did in Vietnam. The British journalist Robert Fisk has some quite interesting comments about this here:
"If you bomb our cities," Osama bin Laden said in one of his recent video tapes, "we will bomb yours." There you go, as they say. It was crystal clear Britain would be a target ever since Tony Blair decided to join George Bush’s "war on terror" and his invasion of Iraq. We had, as they say, been warned. The G8 summit was obviously chosen, well in advance, as Attack Day.
And it’s no use Mr Blair telling us yesterday that "they will never succeed in destroying what we hold dear". "They" are not trying to destroy "what we hold dear". They are trying to get public opinion to force Blair to withdraw from Iraq, from his alliance with the United States, and from his adherence to Bush’s policies in the Middle East. The Spanish paid the price for their support for Bush - and Spain’s subsequent retreat from Iraq proved that the Madrid bombings achieved their objectives - while the Australians were made to suffer in Bali.

It is easy for Tony Blair to call yesterdays bombings "barbaric" - of course they were - but what were the civilian deaths of the Anglo-American invasion of Iraq in 2003, the children torn apart by cluster bombs, the countless innocent Iraqis gunned down at American military checkpoints? When they die, it is "collateral damage"; when "we" die, it is "barbaric terrorism".
http://www.robert-fisk.com/articles517.htm
Another rather strange phenomenon is that no one seems to have any interest in what Osama Bib Laden actually say, when he publish his videos. Fisk also addresses this:
“It’s strange that for a White House that writes screenplays, the words of Osama bin Laden appear so uninteresting. Whenever Bin Laden speaks, no one bothers to read through his speech. The questions are always: Was it him? Is he alive? Where is he? Never: What did he say?”
http://www.robert-fisk.com/articles516.htm
The sheer idiocy of attacking Iraq, which was clear to so many even before it happened should now be crystal clear to anyone with half a brain, but instead we see an incredible amount of people participate in myth making:
“So we are going to support the myth. As the headless bodies are found along the Tigris, as the mortuaries fill up, as the American dead grow far beyond 1,700 - and, let us remember, the Iraqi dead go into the tens of thousands - Europe and the rest of the world still support the American project.”
http://www.robert-fisk.com/articles514.htm
The world which was supposed to become a so much better place when Saddam was gone doesn't seem to follow the Washington/Hollywood script.
Norm
upside/down

"If you bomb our cities," Osama bin Laden said in one of his recent video tapes, "we will bomb yours."

As "they" say... you drew first blood by TARGETING innocent civilians. And yes "collateral damage" is the proper term. What kind of utopian dream world do you live in where ANY military option doesn't hurt the innocent?
"They" are not trying to destroy "what we hold dear".
Oh yes they are...they have made it abundantly clear that they HATE the West's entire way of life and existence. That's an ignorant statement.
They are trying to get public opinion to force Blair to withdraw from Iraq, from his alliance with the United States, and from his adherence to Bush’s policies in the Middle East.
Nobody was in Iraq (bar no fly zones) when the WTS was viciously attacked. I thought Osama had no connection with Iraq? As far as any "alliance" with the US...who's f*cking business is it what legitimate governments do... and what legitimated government does OBL represent? The US isn't the only country with "policies" in the Middle East. Why not attack Israel....(cuz they'd kick ass and take names...?)?
The Spanish paid the price for
being cowards (the Gov.) and yielding to EXACTLY what the terrorist want...coersion through fear and intimidation.
Spain’s subsequent retreat from Iraq proved that the Madrid bombings achieved their objectives -
No argument here...
what were the civilian deaths of the Anglo-American invasion of Iraq in 2003,
I think he answered his own question....
When they die, it is "collateral damage"; when "we" die, it is "barbaric terrorism".
Not always...but in this instance YES.... The US and it's allies (as far as I know) has never TARGETED the innocent in this conflict.
no one seems to have any interest in what Osama Bib Laden actually say
The main stream media (including Al Jazeera) own the air waves... if they want what OBL said out...it's no secret...but who wants to play the rantings of a lunatic Fundy "Muslim"? People would despise him and his message even more than they already do...this has NOTHING to do with "Bush".
The sheer idiocy of attacking Iraq, which was clear to so many even before it happened should now be crystal
Now your talkin sense...the entire Congress, Senate and JCS and the President...were/are "idiots"...
My question now is... When Billionaires and Millionaires go to wage battle for their respective "causes"...why do you think your opinion matters ( mine included) ?
What would have been "the right thing to do"?
And please make no mistake and DON'T misconstrue my comments as supporting the "war"... I just don't see this whole mess from the polarized views of the either "pro" or "con" viewpoint...
I view it as an X-XJW who doesn't view the world in some idealistic way...but for what it is...a cruel dog eat dog world, where the "big dog" usually wins. Whether one is right or wrong has little to do with the outcome... it seems.
u/d (of the Chihuahua class)
Norm

hello u/d

It is hard to know where to begin with your post but you can start educating yourself on the first point you made, which was this:

"As "they" say... you drew first blood by TARGETING innocent civilians. And yes "collateral damage" is the proper term. What kind of utopian dream world do you live in where ANY military option doesn't hurt the innocent?"

If you think that sept 11 was "first blood" and not a retaliation, you ignorance about recent history is staggering but hardly surprising considering where you live. And second, when you carpetbomb a country and use clusterbombs it should be abundantly clear that worries about civilian "casualties" isn't very high on the list. Conservative estimates say that over 10,000 civilian Afghans were killed on those bombings, people who of course had nothing whatsoever to do with Sept. 11. And yes,"the entire Congress, Senate and JCS and the President...were/are "idiots"..." I thought you had gotten that by now. This question from you really tell it all:

"My question now is... When Billionaires and Millionaires go to wage battle for their respective "causes"...why do you think your opinion matters ( mine included)?"

So you do realize that you do not live an a democracy then? Well, that's progress.
foreword

I think we are giving this terrorism thing way too much importance. I agree it's pretty pathetic for anyone to blow themselves up with other people but if you look at it as a numbers game we'd realize that terrorists don't manage to kill that many people compared to other causes of death.
We could have saved many of the 200,000 tsunami victims if we had spent more on tsunami detection systems. Same thing with earthquakes. Drugs, car accidents, cigarettes, cancer, ect...all those kill more people in a year than terrorists do, even when you take them individually.
I'm not saying we shouldn't try to stop terrorism, or try to disrupt their activities with proper intelligence, of course we should, but a least put it in proper perspective.
Governments make it sound like there is a magical solution to it, as if one morning we'll wake up and terrorism won't exist no more. It won't happen. So the phrase.."go on with your life" really is the thing to do. Why fear terrorism? The chances of someone dying from a terrorist attack is very minimal. I'd fear terrorism just as much as hopping in my car for a sunday drive.
Because of it, we are all pointing fingers at each other, creating religious wars and animosity, increasing the chances of terror acts happening even more. You did it to us so here's my retaliation, spending billions in the process.
Were giving these jerks way too much press.
Sunspot

What I actually know about the intracacies of politics is less than mimimal, to say the least. This is why I rarely engage in these "political-type" threads.
Even here at home I have to keep quiet about my "feelings" (not knowledge) of situations that are brought up because hubby and I have opposite views on Bush and the whole thing about WOMD.
I did something stupid, which I'm known for doing in more than one area of my life, and I was laughing at a comment a poster made on here recently (the day of the London bombings) about Bush and hubby asked what was so funny. I read it to him. BOY! Did I suddenly remember how he felt about Bush with an icy cold stare of derision. As I slowly sunk back down into my chair I made another mental note to never make light of Bush's brain cells again.
I think in simplistic terms.....if we (U.S.) hasn't found what it expected to WHY don't we pack'em up and go home? WHY continue to lose either lives or limbs for the way someone else wants to run their country? (I'm NOT looking for answers to these questions, I wouldn't understand the implications anyway. I admit that. THAT'S why I usually stay out of this stuff---because I DON'T "understand!) Hopefully, if you stop poking a stick in a hornet's nest and run like hell to go home, the hornets will be irritated for a while but will eventually settle down.
As I said---simple, but I'm told---not very effective for this, that and another reason.
Foreword said;
***Governments make it sound like there is a magical solution to it, as if one morning we'll wake up and terrorism won't exist no more. It won't happen. So the phrase.."go on with your life" really is the thing to do.***
WE can't DO anything about controlling the mindset or the thinking of those who bomb trains, buses, tall buildings and or small villages. What else IS there to do BUT go on with your life?
Foreword;
***Why fear terrorism? The chances of someone dying from a terrorist attack is very minimal. I'd fear terrorism just as much as hopping in my car for a sunday drive.
Because of it, we are all pointing fingers at each other, creating religious wars and animosity, increasing the chances of terror acts happening even more. You did it to us so here's my retaliation, spending billions in the process.***
I couldn't have said it any better! The sheer LOSS of lives and money is enormous, and yet obviously the world isn't any better off than it was when all this began! Just the fact that we here are so bitter about the pros and cons from which side of the pond we are on----proves that point.
***Were giving these jerks way too much press.
AMEN!!!!!!
Annie.....with MY 2 cents
upside/down

***Were giving these jerks way too much press.

Double Amen!
If you think that sept 11 was "first blood" and not a retaliation, you ignorance about recent history is staggering but hardly surprising considering where you live.
retaliation? The people in the Towers did what? And since I don't think it was "first blood" (that's how some have termed it) then according you you "opinion"...my ignorance isn't "staggering"... but (again...) is it really necessary to insinuate that "where I live" makes me...and everyone else here "ignorant dipshits"?Can you foreign rabid anti-Bush regime types talk without personal insults?
So you do realize that you do not live an a democracy then?
Are you daft? I'm an X-XJW...never was "into" the whole government thing...it's one of the reasons I joined the cult. That's one of my biggest peeves...that NO ONE has the "say" they think they do...government (like religion) is an illusion of the rich to keep the masses in line, prevent anarchy and ensure profitability to their constituents. Duh! (but you're condescending and "smarter than thou" remarks...show me you may have been an ex-elder in need of being the "dominant" alpha-jerk that most of them are... and now found a venue for that IMO)
Either way I'm with Sunspot...too damn much attention is given....(ah the media) and the terrorists I'm sure will join the Screen Actors Guild...
On with my "ordinary" American "Muslim hate inducing" lifestyle...
u/d (of the gonna grill a big fat steak, drink some French wine and then go burn some arab oil while driving my Jap truck and senselessly consume what the world produces class)
u/d
Sunspot

Either way I'm with Sunspot...too damn much attention is given....(ah the media) and the terrorists I'm sure will join the Screen Actors Guild...

((((u/d))))
As pleased as I am that you agree with my post, the credit for the "attention" quote was from Foreword!
While I am here again (this thread) I thought of something that I wanted to add. Everyone here has the right to feel the way they do about any subject up for discussion. But I feel bad when others put down "the USA" in a lump as it has been done.
I know that ALL governments have made their own share of horrible mistakes through the years, and I'm not a fanatical flag-waving "my gov't right or wrong" kind of person......BUT when the term "Americans" is bandied about like this, is when I tend to get a bit huffy.
When I was a kid, back in the 50's when we had the "duck and cover" excersizes in school, and when all we heard was those horrible "Russians" and how they hated us.....
I can't even remember who told me this, but it obviously stuck in my head for 45 years............was that "the Russians" are people just like we are. They take their kids to the park, they hop a bus to go to work to earn a living, and they go to the movies, and go ice skating and do all the things that we do as citizens of a country!
"They" are not plotting anything or planning to bomb my school or my home. It is the leaders of the country or countries that are deciding these terrible things, NOT the individual families who happen to live there!
I feel much the same when I see all this "stuff" on TV, the speeches, the addresses to the nation, the press interviews, and their decisions----they do not necessarily reflect the views of the entire nation of people they represent!
Maybe some of you could word your posts to put this into the proper perspective...because if you see this "our" way, it can be offensive to the reader.
ALL of the U.S. isn't bad, nor are ALL of the Iraqis or any other nation of people who have the misfortune to have leaders and their allies following procedures that are less than desirable.
Annie

Death of innocent people

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