I love the Running Man series - I REALLY must get the book. Made me aware of stories I didn't know and chopped some good logic. Thanks Running Man.
Running Man's Book
by startingover 26 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Rex
Let's see. You said:
>Somehow I knew this thread would die a slow death without an answer.
Methinks you are overly anxious in your Christian baiting. Why would you assume that a Christian needs to search out every atheist diatribe and take the time to disect it and answer, point by point? I don't want to sound arrogant but have you heard the one about 'don't cast your pearls before swine'? Ignore the whole swine comparison and see it for what it is. Let me give you an example:
If I was in a group of people trying to discuss some spiritual subject with an individual and the rest constantly tittered and catcalled, what would be accomplished? Or, what about this: why would I take the time to argue with someone who has already made up their mind? Now you see the whole 'pearls/swine' thing.
There are a lot of knowledgeable people who make it their business and ministry to do just that: they are apolgists for the Christian faith. You can find them in your local bookstore or library. Some people here like to hang out and pretend to be scholars and writers. Some like to think they can drag others down from what faith they have left. Some think they gain a measure of revenge on God by doing so. But it's 'all vanity, grasping after the wind' (Ecclesiastes), fighting windmills (which is a Danish expression). I am sure you get the picture.
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RunningMan
Wow, I just saw this thread. Thanks everyone. By the way:
all 103 pages.
Thanks to all the encouragement, it's now up to 127 pages. I can't keep track of who has what, so if anyone would like an updated copy, drop me a pm with your email address.
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Daunt
Usually civilized debates are for searching for a command solution to a problem. However, many folks are too resistent to give up what they know in a debate, that's where the name calling comes from. I haven't seen any instance where a person resorted to curse words and name calling to get to their point, unless it's mild name-calling. But I wish there was more reasonable arguments about faith and religion and whatnot, always good to hear somebodies else opinion.
And just because somebody has made up their mind doesn't mean a debate is meaningless. In reality many debates aren't about who thinks they're right or whatnot, it's using the facts and logic reasoning to come to a concrete conclusion. Putting a person's opinion as fact only muddies up the debate, and not to be mean but one side does it more than others. Well the few that get into the debate, so it's immpossible for me to judge all christians by a few people's posts. -
dorayakii
If I was in a group of people trying to discuss some spiritual subject with an individual and the rest constantly tittered and catcalled, what would be accomplished? Or, what about this: why would I take the time to argue with someone who has already made up their mind? Now you see the whole 'pearls/swine' thing.
Honesly, i think the whole "pearl before swine" thing is a cop out... if something is true, then it will have proof and many open minded people will accept it. If it is false, it will inevitably look really stupid, and no matter how open minded you are, you cannot accept something that is stupid and illogical to you...If i tell you that 2 + 2 = 4, you will be able to go out and prove it, and come back believing. on the other hand, i can tell you that a ² + b ² = c ²... you may see that this is true when applied to right-angled triangles, you may then take it as an ultimate truth to guide your life... but then, you discover that the sum doesn't work when applied to isoceles triangles, circles or squares. you then have to reject this formula, because it is false. it may seem true, because you are putting your own spin on it, but it is false.
the bible is like that second forumula. There are shining examples of good morals and kindness being hown, examples that any good person should follow... you accept the whole formula as perfect... you then some become unable to reconcile its message of love and fairness, with god's track record of contradictions and assumed moral inferiority. The formula you now have, does not seem to match up with what you know to be morally correct. It turns out that the formula, (the Bible) is useful after all, but not for what you thought it was useful for and can be just as misleading as a ² + b ² = c ² when it is stretched to be an all-encompassing and perfect rule and to mean something it doesn't. It just doesn't fit, and seems rediculous. What appears to be a pearl of mathematical wisdom becomes foolish, and the people who see the formula as foolish are referred to as swine, just because there is no logical, proved method of testing the claims... The unbelievers are required to just believe and be saved.
If you were to present your truthful arguement for WHY you think a ² + b ² = c ² applies to triangles, squares and circles, then people are more likely to listen. If you throw everything up in the air and say, "oh forget it, its like pearls before swine" then people will continue to view you as illogical, unreasonable and erroneous.
It requires faith to see, in the case of a circle or a square, that a ² + b ² = c ² , because "faith" according to the bible is "the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (KJ)
- People without faith take what they have seen, heard, sensed felt or witnessed to be their evidence. They are not satisfied that their mere hopes can come true, just because they wish it so strongly.
- People with faith, on the other hand, are able to take things they have NOT seen, heard, sensed felt or witnessed to be their evidence, they see substance in their hopes without empirical evidence, or even with negative empirical evidence, and use that to propogate their beliefs.
I'm not saying that this is wrong, i believe that faith can be a useful thing that serves its purpose of among other things, dispelling hopelessness in our human mind, human beings do it every day, even atheists. In fact we have to do it everyday, it is a needed part of the human psyche which keeps us sane.
However, i also believe that faith can be dangerous if it is dogmatically said to be the ultimate truth. Faith is an extremely personal mental process that brings personal satisfaction. Atheists feel exactly the same way as you, that trying to convince you of their logical arguements is like "pearls before swine". They get frustrated that people just cannot see the world throught their eyes, because to their eyes it looks so beautiful, and trying to super-impose god into that world unbalances their formula and makes it look ugly. Likely people with religious faith feel exactly the same way about taking god out of that formula.
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dorayakii
Putting a person's opinion as fact only muddies up the debate
Exactly Daunt, there is a real fear of people not holding the exact same opinion and belief as you. Our natural reaction (enhanced even more so by being associated with Jehovah's Witnesses) is to defend our point of view.Intolerance of diversity is a root cause of a lot of heated arguements and even wars in the world. Everybody must be yielding because
A new friend of mine who i care about, just cannot understand why i cannot see the governing body to be "god's channel"... on the other hand, with all the evidence i have accumulated, i cannot understand why he accepts that channel... i could tear his hair out and punch him and scream at him and perform a frontal lobotomy to physically remove what i see as pure foolishness from his head, but that will achieve nothing, because he sees clearly because of his proof and his evidence. He might feel the same for me, and he might in addition feel pity that i'm missing out on something which he views as precious. The paradox is though, that i feel he's missing out on the preciousness of what i believe...
If you want to convince others, you calmly put across evidence which you think proves the point. Unless what the person is doing is hurting or harming others, if that person doesn't see exactly what you see, then tough... This is a lesson that i am constantly learning and i sometimes fall short in it and im sorry if i offended him or anyone here by being overly dogmatic in my judgement...
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the_classicist
RM's Book thread was never meant to provoke debate, but it was satirical rhetoric. What's the point of an Apologist responding on that thread when RM is clearly preaching to the choir.