God and religion etc..............................

by Zep 36 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Zep
    Zep

    The communist world, it may be noted, has one big myth (which we call an illusion, in the vain hope that our superior judgment will make it disappear) It is the time hallowed archetypal dream of a Golden Age (or Paradise), where everything is provided in abundance for everyone, and a great, just, and wise chief rules over a human kindergarten. This powerful archetype in its infantile form has gripped them, but it will never disappear from the world at the mere sight of our superior points of view. We even support it by our own childishness, for our Western civilisation is in the grip of the same mythology. Unconsciously, we cherish the same prejudices, hopes, and expectations. We too believe in the Welfare state, in universal peace, in the equality of man, in his eternal human rights, in justice, truth, and (do not say it too loudly) in the Kingdom of God on Earth.
    The sad truth is tha man's real life consists of a complex of inexorable opposites- day and night, birth and death, hapiness and misery, good and evil. We are not even sure that one will prevail against the other, that good will overcome evil, or joy will defeat pain. Life is a battleground. It always has been, and always will be; and if it were not so, existence would come to an end.
    It was precisely this conflict within man that led the early Christians to expect and hope for an early end to this world, or the Buddhists to reject all earthly desires and aspirations. These basic answers would be frankly suicidal if they were not linked up with peculiar mental and moral ideas and practices that constitute the bulk of both religions and that, to a certain extent, modify their radical denial of the world.
    I stress this point because, in our time, there are millions of people who have lost faith in any kind of religion. Such people do not understand their religion any longer. While life runs smoothly without religion, the loss remains as good as unnoticed. But when suffereing comes, it is another matter. That is when people begin to seek a way out and to reflect about the meaning of life and its bewildering and painful experiences.
    It is significant that the psychological doctor (within my experience) is consulted more by Jews and Protestants than by Catholics. This might be expected, for the Catholic Church still feels responsible for the cura animarum (the care of the soul's welfare). But in this scientific age, the psychriatrist is apt to be asked the questions that once belonged in the domain of the theologian. People feel that it makes, or would make, a great difference if only they had a positive belief in a meaningful way of life or in God and immortality. The specter of approaching death often gives a powerful incentive to such thoughts. From time immemorial, men have had ideas about a supreme being (one or several) and about the land Hereafter. Only today do they think they can do without such ideas.
    Because we cannot discover God's throne in the sky with a radiotelescope or establish (for certain) that a beloved father or mother is still about in a more or less corporeal form, people assume that such ideas are "not true" I would rather say that they are not "true" enough, for these are conceptions of a kind that have accompanied human life from prehistoric times, and that still break through into consciousness at any provocation.
    Modern man may asssert that he can dispense with them, and he may bolster his opinion by insisting that there is no scientific evidence of their truth. Or he may even regret the loss of his convictions. But since we are dealing with invisible and unknowable things (for God is beyond human understanding, and there is no means of proving immortality), why should we bother about evidence? Even if we did not know by reason our need for salt in our food, we should nonetheless profit from its use. We might argue that the use of salt is a mere illusion of taste or a superstition; but it would still contribute to our well-being. Why, then , should we deprive ourselves of views that would prove helpful in crises and would give a meaning to our existence?
    And how do we know that such ideas are not true? Many people would probably agree with me if I stated flatly that such ideas are probably illusions. What they fail to realize is that the denial is as impossible to "prove" as the assertion of religious belief. We are entirely free to choose which point of view we take; it will in any case be an arbitrary decision.
    There is, however, a strong empirical reason why we should cultivate thoughts that can never be proved. It is that they are known to be useful. Man positively needs general ideas and convictions that will give a meaning to his life and enable him to find a place for himself in the universe. He can stand the most incredible hardships when he is convinced that they make sense; he is crushed when, on top of all his misfortunes, he has to admit that he is taking part in a "tale told by an idiot."
    It is the role of religious symbols to give a meaning to the life of man. The Pueblo Indians believe that they are the sons of Father Sun, and this belief endows their life with a perspective (and a goal) that goes far beyond their limited existence. It gives them ample space for the unfolding of personality and permits them a full life as complete persons. Their plight is infinitely more satisfactory than that of a man in our own civilization who knows that he is (and will remain) nothing more than an underdog with no inner meaning to his life.
    A sense of a wider meaning to one's existence is what raises a man beyond mere getting and spending. I f he lacks this sense, he is lost and miserable.

    Carl.G.Jung
    'Man and his Symbols'
    1964

  • Seven
    Seven

    Zep, Jung also said that you can take away a man's
    gods, but only give him others in return. If you are interested in more of his thoughts you can go to http://www.angelfire.com/tn/MythsDreamsSymbols/index.html You will also find the Gospel of Thomas there.

    (50)Jesus said, "If they say to you, Where did you come from?" say to them, "We came from the light, the place where the light came into being on it's own accord and established itself and became manifest through their image." If they say to you, "Is it you?" say "We are it's children, we are the elect of the living father." If they ask you, "What is the sign of the father in you?" say to them, "It is movement and repose."
    -Gospel of Thomas

    seven

  • Zep
    Zep

    Thanks seven, i'll check it out for sure.I'm a bit of a Jung fan and have read a couple of books on his stuff.The one above, 'man and his symbols' and another one called 'Boundries of the Soul' by June Singer, which is a really good read if you ever get the chance!

    BTW, i just figured out your name.I use to think sevenOFnine = something like seven of nine kids??????!!!!....until i saw Voyager a few weeks ago.I can see where your coming from with it now!.Good nic!

  • Pathofthorns
    Pathofthorns

    Hey Zep,

    I liked that post. At first you had me going thinking that you had written that yourself. Here I'm thinking, "Zep is saying exactly what I've been thinking about these days!!"

    I would be interested in finding out more of this guys thoughts. Thanks for the link Seven, thanks for the post Zep.

    Path

  • Frenchy
    Frenchy

    Good post, Zep. Like Path, I thought those were your words at first and I'm thinking, 'hey, Zep's mellowing out here!'. I agree with him on his statement about the Catholic church. I believe that (according to MY limited experience) it serves more as a 'mother' to its members than any other faith that I have encountered.
    I am, however, surprised that he would ask the question:

    Why, then , should we deprive ourselves of views that would prove helpful in crises and would give a meaning to our existence?

    . I would think it self evident that man (in general) cannot arbitrarily choose to believe something completely without some basis. Perhaps someone would like to comment on that.

    -Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-

  • Pathofthorns
    Pathofthorns

    My take on what this guy is saying is that while spiritual concepts cannot be proven to be correct, neither can they be proven wrong because of the nature of them.

    For many, the constructive nature of such beliefs, the hope they offer in times of crisis, the meaning they give to their lives is basis enough for their believing something that cannot be proven. And because spiritual things/beliefs cannot necessarily be disproven, whose to say that person is "wrong" for believing whatever he does?

    I think if we all only believed in only what was "proven", we'd all be godless. We'd lose what makes us human.

    Path

    PS. I think most would have little problem with the Witness beliefs either, if they genuinely allowed individuals the freedom of conscience to disagree. I wouldn't care if they taught the most rediculous things and people chose to believe them. For some it probably does some good in their life.

  • circare
    circare

    Thanks Zep for posting this topic. It is something I also have been thinking about for some time.

    Frenchy I don't think a belief in God can be something that is chosen on a whim either. There would have to be some basis - what could be a basis for this faith in your opinion?

    I would like to believe there is more reason for faith in God than the positive psychological benefits.

  • Pathofthorns
    Pathofthorns

    For me, my faith in God is primarily based on the fact that we exist.

    Aside from all the talk of how imperfect we are, I find the perfection in life that is there simply facinating. How life is passed on, our senses, immune system, brain etc. is too remarkable for me to believe in something other than creation. (sorry to sound like a public talk outline :)

    Beyond that though, everything seems to me to be a concept, a theory, a philosophy. I know whatever i choose to believe is simply unprovable.

    This is the disturbing part about this whole trip. It is the knowing that after all the "travelling", I will likely end up in the same place.

    Sometimes I wonder what is the point of asking questions that you know there is no certain answer to. But I am, for some reason driven to try and search for what cannot be found.

    Path

  • Seven
    Seven

    Path, My faith in God is based entirely on whether
    or not Jesus is who they said he was. The writers of the Greek Scriptures lived with him, witnessed the preaching, saw the miracles, watched him die and come back from the dead. As Peter said,For we did not follow cleverly divised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord
    Jesus Christ, but we were eye-witnesses of his majesty. For when he received honor and glory from God the father and the voice was borne to him by the majestic glory, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; we heard this voice from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain."
    My faith hinges on the fact that Jesus was the messiah. If it could be proven otherwise, there would be nothing left for me. After examining the works of the so-called hostile
    witnesses, some historians and writers like Josephus, Pliny, and Porphyry, I still believe-I believe that Jesus was more than an ancient hero.

    seven

  • Zep
    Zep
    Why, then , should we deprive ourselves of views that would prove helpful in crises and would give a meaning to our existence?

    Well, myself, i have a lot of doubt now. But i cant disprove God or a greater being or anything.I'm not going to use my doubt as a basis to dis-believe.Why should i make that jump, what good would it do me.I think you can cultivate a belief or faith in a greater being or reality on nothing more than the desire to believe.
    I don't see why i should put a cap on that need, feeling or instinct for something greater just because my rational mind cant put God under a microscope...because i cant understand everything under the sun.Thats how i see things.I think the instinct or desire to believe is more than enough of a basis to believe.

    Jung is fascinating but also complex and inexplicable at times.You can read his stuff and not understand any of it first time round and then read it again and 'bam', you can suddenly see what he's saying.They say you have to live Jungs ideas to really understand them...they arn't something you can just put into formula and there you have it!.He's about going beyond the rational mind and trying to understand the emotional, irrational, unconscious side of our Nature.He's was a great thinker.

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