God and religion etc..............................

by Zep 36 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  AhHah

  I especially enjoyed reading everyone's comments on this excellent quote from Jung.

  I also tend to believe that the universe (and our ability to contemplate it) seems to suggest a higher intelligence and a creator or progenitor of some kind. I am reluctant, however, to limit my concept of this to the god (or should I say gods) of the Bible. As stated, the god of the Bible, is inconsistently portrayed at best. At worst, the god of the old testament often seems no better than the all-too-human gods of the Greeks and Romans as well as many primitive cultures. I no longer have confidence that the Bible is a book inspired by a progenitor (although I would not argue against the possibility that some of it might be).

  I prefer to believe that if there is an intelligent creator, it is not limited to accepting/validating the lives of individuals as worthy of an afterlife solely on the basis of belief in some doctrine or person (e.g. Christ).

  I find it much more logical to believe that a superior intelligence would be more likely to evaluate individuals on the basis of actions. After all, should a Buddhist or atheist who acts more "Christian" than a Christian be condemned because he/she never heard of or accepted Christ? That would seem to me incredibly petty, human, if you will, not god-like.

  I believe that we tend to be very myopic -- that is, we all tend to believe something similar to the concept of god with which we were raised. Ask the American Indians what their ancestors believed and tell me if that sounds anything like the god of the Bible. Does that make them wrong? Should it even matter to a creator? If they sought values that we would consider reflective of genuine spirituality, shouldn't that be enough?

  I also believe that we tend to discount the fact that humans are capable of being spiritual, god-like, if you will, simply because some of us value those qualities and their affect on our lives, and not because we have holy spirit or because god appeared to us, or because we are "saved". In other words, why should we believe that we cannot be spiritual without a validated definition of god? Whose validation is right? It shouldn't matter.

  This does not mean we must resign ourselves, and feel without hope. If an intelligent creator put us here and values each one of us as individuals, then any valid hope of an afterlife that the creator may bestow, exists whether we correctly comprehend it or not. If this creator really is so cruel as to expect everyone to correctly identify its revelations to humans (assuming there are any revelations) then obviously many or most humans are doomed. That just makes no sense to me.

  I believe that everything we really need to know, we need no one to teach us. Beyond that, perhaps full enlightenment awaits us all.

  "No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn." -- Jim Morrison

  Edited by - AhHah on 18 September 2000 6:36:22

  Edited by - AhHah on 18 September 2000 6:55:59
• 

  Pathofthorns

  Interesting. Nice comments.

  It seems that the JW trip leads to similar conclusions, with variations due to individual perspective.

  At the very least, such new perspectives seem to lead to tollerance and less predjudice, a desiring to see beyond our "myopic" outlooks.

  We used to talk about being "open-minded" and we used to believe we "listened" to other's viewpoints.

  Now we really are open minded and now we are free to actually consider someone else's viewpoint as we cast aside our know-it-all arrogance and hate.

  Path
• 

  AhHah

  I totally agree. I prefer having the right questions instead of thinking I have all the answers.

  I thought that my comments might spur more discussion since they are such a radical departure from the JW mold. It DOES seem kind of dead around here lately! Where is everyone? Does anyone still believe that the Bible is the only path to God?
• 

  waiting

  Hey AhHah,

  In a moral dilemma, only the intelligent are confused."

  I really don't know who originated this quote, but I heard it on Doogy Houser, MD (don't laugh)and the father/doctor was quoting somebody historically famous. It really fit my circumstances - and that was about 5 years ago.

  Seems I live my life in a state of moral dilemma and resultant confusion. At least I can assume that some would consider that a sign of intelligence. My only comfort in my confusion.....

  waiting
• 

  AhHah

  Thanks Waiting!

  At last ... someone WAS listening.

  As to the quote, I have never heard it, but I believe that any "confusion" (i.e. waiting to commit until one has enough information) resulting from having enough intelligence not to necessarily believe the first thing one hears about a matter -- is a very good thing. When it is a matter that one cares about, an intelligent person will put forth the effort to gather enough information to make an informed decision -- even if that decision is to defer judgment when there is simply not enough information. This may still allow the intelligent person to be able to reject out of hand any position that is inconsistent with one's research, and thereby possibly avoid the manipulation that others may allow when they let others do their thinking for them. Either way, the informed person is in a better position, if not a blissful one.

  I would like to hear your (or anyone else's) thoughts about whether Christianity is the only path to God.

  "No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn." -- Jim Morrison

  Edited by - AhHah on 20 September 2000 15:40:33
• 

  Seven

  I believe that everything we really need to know, we need no one to teach us.

  I'll not dance around the ring like Muhammad Ali used to rope-a-dope his opponents. Does anyone here still believe in Jehovah God and the leather bound book of fairy tales?

  Beyond that, perhaps full enlightment awaits us all.

  [i]Well we all shine on. Like the moon and the stars and the sun. Well we all shine on. On and on and on and on-John Lennon
• 

  AhHah

  Seven,

  That, indeed, is the question.

  I feel that I stated my position on the question very forthrightly and as clearly as I know how. The rope-a-dope comment makes it sound as though you feel that I have been cagey or disingenuous, or even that my motives might be to ensnare an unwary victim.

  I assure you that is not what I am about. I wonder if you have read any of my other posts?? I am only trying to share my current thinking in hopes of hearing what others are thinking. I have no desire to talk anyone out of anything they choose to believe in. I am, however, willing to adjust my thinking if I am convinced that I should. I am certainly no authority on this subject. I am just hoping to get a clue. Maybe full enlightenment does await us all. Until then, I reserve the right to change my mind.

  Lest you think I am still "dancing around", allow me to restate my position. I find it difficult to believe that Jehovah, if he is the Creator of all life as the Bible claims, would require that all mankind accept Christ as their personal savior in order to qualify for eternal life. As I said, that seems to condemn most of mankind for their ignorance. Doesn't sound like a very loving god to me. Sounds more like a jealous child. On the other hand, I cannot state for a fact that it is not true. It just doesn't seem reasonable TO ME PERSONALLY.

  Where does that leave the Bible for me (which, I assume, you refer to as the "book of fairy tales" in a sarcastic way)? I stated before that I am not convinced that any or all of it is from the real Creator. That is as clear as I can be.

  What do you think, Seven?

  BTW, I like the John Lennon quote.

  "Imagine there's no heaven. I wonder if you can. ... Nothing to kill or die for, and no religion, too. ... Imagine all the people living for today. ... a brotherhood of man."
• 

  Pathofthorns

  The problem with saying Christianity is the only way, is that you condemn much of the world to destruction.

  Of course, the other problem paradoxically, is that the Bible says Christianity is the only way.

  Which also paradoxically seems to contradict Christ's personality (or Christianity?) to condemn good people to death, many who never are exposed to Christianity.

  Christ's personality seems to be in contrast to Jehovah's personality which leads to wondering how to view all of these things.

  I haven't spent great amounts of time on this one yet. It is something that does bother me. My view at present is that there seems to be something divine about the Bible, but also as well other holy books.

  Perhaps the exact nature of God is beyond our comprehention and many of these books are trying to explain the unexplainable. I'm not really sure anymore.

  Path
• 

  waiting

  Hey AhHah,

  Your questions are good, as are Seven's, imho. I think I've taken the position to read, think, and quiet my mind for a while about God. As a jw, many of the questions we had about creation, evolution, Adam & Eve, Satan, Hebrew & Greek scriptures, etc., etc., etc., were silenced.

  Since we've taken a step back, these questions and hundreds more, are rising - with no answers.

  Not only that, we have the freedom, maybe the obligation to question the WTBTS - and we (well, myself) have never done that before. When questions arised, just click off before danger - now no clicking off of the mind.

  Makes one's mind very tired of the confusing information abounding that's never been considered, let alone thought about, before. I think that I want to untangle my thinking from the WTBTS before looking into, or up to, God.

  Perhaps the WTBTS is a whole other subject than belief in God. Perhaps there's more truth in that statement than I would have wished for......

  waiting
• 

  AhHah

  Seems like Seven likes to jab, duck and then leave the ring - to use his own boxing ring analogy.