Confession, Clergy and Church: Source Material

by Maximus 16 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  ozziepost

  OK Waiting, I'll make a quick response to the many points raised by MDS.

  It's good to be guided by Jesus' parable of the Good Samaritan. What was his point? Jesus was expanding on the need for love of neighbour i.e. who is our neighbour? The Samaritan in Jesus' illustration was viewed as an enemy of the Jew. Jesus was therefore saying that everyone is our neighbour including our enemies. How hard that is to apply! And how hard it is for the Watchtower organisation to teach! "worldly people" are to be kept at arms length. If anything the Watchtower view is illustrated by the priest and the Levite in the parable who passed by on the other side. Quite appropriate really for the modern-day Pharisee class!

  Cheers,
  Ozzie

  "There are two ways of moving men, interest and fear" Napoleon
• 

  MDS

  Hi Ozziepost, Waiting and other interested parties,

  Perhaps, we have now come to see what many still, refuse to see...but inevitably will HAVE TO SEE before this is all over...

  ARE JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES A CHRISTIAN RELIGION?

  That's the question...

  The WTS says the "worldly people" are "bad association." Don't have anything to do with them. -- 1 Cor. 15:33

  So, we have nothing to do with them, outside of work, school and so on. We tell our children not to "associate" with the youngsters in the neighborhood..."bad association." No matter what kind of parents, neighbors, people they are in reality. Still, if they are not "Jehovah's Witnesses," then, we must have nothing to do with them...they are viewed as "worldly people," thus, bad association.

  So, if we have nothing to do with our neighbors, no association whatsoever, no dealings with them, then how will they see our "light" that is supposed to shine forth...Our "good works" that Jesus talked about?

  "Likewise let your light shine before men, that they may SEE YOUR FINE WORKS and give glory to your Father who is in the heavens." -- Matt. 5:16

  What acts of "love", "Fine works," can the world in general "see" about this Watchtower lead Organization?

  Really...they can "see" no "fine works" by this organization at all. That's because we do not participant in anything that has to do with the "world" in general. We view the world as "bad association" completely.

  Thus, the world never "sees" anything good coming from this organization...right?

  This now, makes for a big, big, big problem for us as a so-called "Christian" Organization of "non-doers."

  The world could rightly say to us,

  Do Jehovah's Witnesses as an organization, as a "christian" organization display the type of "love" Jesus said would be characteristic of his GENUINE DISCIPLES in these last days?

  The same "love" expressed by the "Good Samaritan" who we remember was of a different "creed" from the "enemy" Jew. He was of a DIFFERENT RELIGION from the "Israelite" he helped on the roadside. He was of a different RELIGIOUS PERSUASION than the members of the Jewish faith. They believed differently. But he became his true "neighbor" by his intervention even though he knew they were hated by the Jews. His religious beliefs did not prevent him from displaying acts of "mercy", kindness and human compassion toward his "enemy." -- See John 4:20-22

  Are Jehovah's Witnesses, some 6 million strong, taught to view their "worldly" neighbors like this?

  If not, then ... Jehovah's witnesses ARE NOT "Christians"...pure and simple. They are NOT a "Christian" Religious Organization.

  The facts speak for themselves.

  Jesus said,

  "You heard that it was said, You must love your neighbor and HATE YOUR ENEMIES [a Pharisee teaching]. However, I say to you: continue tolove your enemies and to pray for those persecuting you that you may prove yourselves sons of your Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise upon wicked people and good and makes it rain upon righteous people and unrighteous. For if you love those loving you, what reward to youhave? Are not al the tax collectors doing the same thing? And if you greet your brothers only, what extraordinary thing are you doing? Are not also the people of the nations doing the same thing? You must accordingly be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." -- Matt. 5:43-47

  Jehovah Witnesses as an organization, do NOT measure up to the above standard set by Jesus Christ in expressing the all-important quality of true "love" as Jehovah and Jesus have done.

  They do not measure up, because they are taught to be Pharisees, just like the "unchristian", unMerciful, non-loving, Watchtower Society and its worthless Governing Body of fake "anointed" christians.

  The facts speak for themselves.

  Again, Jesus said,

  "All ["worldly people"] will know you are my disciples if you have LOVE among yourselfs. -- John 13:35

  Is this the way the "worldly people" think of Jehovah's Witnesses as a worldwide organization? That they are such a "loving" people. With the WTS now in existence for over 120 years now?

  We've certainly had time to "grow" spiritually, in our displaying "Christian Love" to our "neighbor."

  Or, how about this point,

  "Little children, let us love, neither in word nor with the tongue, but in deed and truth." -- 1 John 3:18

  Doesn't this verse also apply to our expression of "love" toward "worldly people"?

  Another principle,

  "really, then, as long as we have time favorable for it, let us WORK WHAT IS GOOD TOWARD ALL, but especially toward those related to us in the faith." -- Galatians 6:10

  Do we "practice" or put into operation, the first part of the verse..."working what is good ALL people...those who are NOT "related to us in the faith."

  Clearly, we must admit...The Watchtower Society teachings are "leavenous" and false. -- Matt.16:12

  They have taught us "traditions," and "commandments of men," which nullifies our worship with Jehovah God. -- Matt. 15:9

  They have taught us, the entire organization, to "hate" our "enemies." We do not render assistance or help because they are of a different religion, faith, creed. A different religious BELIEF system than us. Thus, they are the "enemy."

  And the "enemy" is anyone who is not a Jehovah's Witness, period. Anyone NOT of our religious persuasion... Those "worldly people," the "bad association."

  Jesus said,

  "By their fruits you will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? Likewise every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit; a good tree cannot gbear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire. Really, then, by their fruits you will recognize those men." Matt. 7:16-20

  If Jehovah's Witnesses are NOT a "Good Samaritan" Organization of People, ... then Jehovah's Witnesses, in practice, in actuality, ARE NOT CHRISTIAN at all.

  Jehovah's Witnesses, and the Watchtower Society, then ARE NOT "Christians" at all. Their "fruits" prove it.

  This is the way, Jehovah and Jesus viewed the matter. They destruction they have "mapped out" for all other people, and the "pit" they have excavated for others, ... lies right before them, directly in their path.

  Its up to us, to see the situation as it is, and take the most logical, most appropriate action.

  VACATE THE PREMISES...

  I thank you for your "listening ear."

  Many thanks.

  MDS
• 

  waiting

  Hi Ozzie!

  OK Waiting, I'll make a quick response to the many points raised by MDS.

  Oh, I got MDS' point - but we don't talk to each other well. Last I saw, the best I got from him was that he acknowledge that he would talk to me......as in: "I would talk to you if I had to."

  I got that point too.

  I think Maximus and Hilliary Step made good points - and no matter the amount of coffee, I'm still a little baffled on what to reply. "Oh yeah?" just didn't seem appropriate since I agree with them.

  Hey Hilliary Step

  Glad you came back on the forum - can't keep a good man away from chat, eh?

  waiting
• 

  MDS

  Hi Waiting:

  ...I'm still a little baffled on what to reply. "Oh yeah?" just didn't seem appropriate since I agree with them.

  Waiting, I appreciate your comments. Thank you.

  In actuality, all Jehovah's Witnesses would be "baffled" as to an appropriate response, if they pondered this matter, the "Good Samaritan" teaching and what we have been taught about "worldly people" as being "bad association." We could not explain ourselves, explain our "fruitage" and practices, as 1 Peter 3:15 recommends.

  We couldn't do it.

  This is because, the WTS has taught the organization wrong, and have amassed "bad fruitage" to this effect by way of "reputation" among "worldly people" for the past 120 years!

  Our "reputation" stinks in the world. EVERYBODY dislikes us. Because we never "get involved," we never help anyone. We never let "our light shine" before men at all.

  So they "hate" us...the world. And rightfully so, since we as an organization have manifested disdain, repulsion, and outright hatred for "worldly people" over the years, consistently and in all parts of the earth. And we did this with a "clear conscience", sleeping good at night, as wonderful, faithful "christians."

  We say they are "bad association." -- 1 Cor. 15:33

  Perhaps you and I, and Ozziepost, then, have reached a "critical point" in our quest for truth. A critical point of agreement. (Though we have our differences, as all people do.) Still, perhaps, we can all agree:

  Jehovah's Witnesses, the Watchtower Society and Governing Body, ARE NOT A CHRISTIAN ORGANIZATION based upon the many teachings of Jesus on displaying true, Christian "Love" For Our Neighbor...the "worldly people." Those of a different "Creed," those of a different "Religious Belief" system or "Faith". The "Good Samaritan" teaching condemns the organization completely as a whole.

  The facts show, we have been erroneously taught to view "our Neighbor" in this so-called "Christian" Organization, as "bad association" and so we have no "dealings" with them at all beyond that which is ABSOLUTELY necessary. Our only responsibility toward them, we are taught, is to "preach" to them in our "door-to-door" ministry. And if they don't listen, then, no association beyond that point on a normal basis...we even refrain in emergency situations too. We simply don't get involved.

  This "Pharisical" position adopted by the WTS and G.B., was a CRITICAL MISTAKE, a critical mistake, for the entire rank and file makeup of the organization as a whole. The image of the organization, as seen by "worldly people." Our IMAGE. Tarnished completely, as being "unchristian." Non-loving.

  We are all guilty and open to charges by those who are not of our religious persuasion. This point is the "death-stroke" point, I believe, to our claims to be truly "Christian" and to possess the truly "anointed" in our midst. A "Death-Stroke" point.

  We cannot defend ourselves for such an argument. We are defenseless. That's why you baffled as to what to say about our defenseless "situation."

  Jehovah's Witnesses as an organization and people, really, ARE NOT "CHRISTIAN" at all...period...

  Why? ... Our "fruits" say so.

  If the religious church organizations began to preach to "Jehovah's Witnesses" using the "Good Samaritan" as their theme text, we would be tried, convicted and condemned before ALL as "non-doers of the word" ... those who only "love with the tongue and word." -- James 1:22-25; 1 John 3:18

  We would be condemned as "FALSE CHRISTIANS", and not possessing any of the truly "Anointed" among us. -- 1 John 2:20, 27: 3:1, 3, 18

  They would say, based upon our "fruits" for the past 120 years, We are FALSE Christians..."weeds" and not "wheat."

  And this would be a true analysis, based upon the teachings of Jesus Christ.

  Jehovah's Witnesses, as an organization, DO NOT DISPLAY CHRISTIAN "LOVE."

  We have failed the test. Our "fruits" prove it.

  MDS
• 

  waiting

  Confession, Clergy and Church: Source Material

  Most of us are so steeped in the monolithic viewpoint it is hard to recognize that there is a great variance among priests--maximus

  In other words, all clergy and priests aren't taught to be cookie cutter style elders. Speaking in complete harmony and agreement. And if they don't, call the WTBTS and they will get all elders in agreement.

  Overturning such law effects not just religious bodies but also the medical world, as well as playing havoc with the Catholic vote! - hilliary step

  Interesting. Never thought about the enormous reality of the politics involved. Catholics vote - and priests are well known to encourage different politicians, locally on up.

  For example a person may confess to his priest that he is going home after his confession to murder his unfaithful wife. In these circumstances the priest is bound by the tenets of the Church to report this matter to those who might be able to prevent it. If he does not prevent it he is liable under law himself. This generally does not apply to ‘past’ sins under ‘confessional seal’. - hilliary step

  In other words, in a "confessional seal" (secret), if a man tells a priest "I'm gonna kill my wife" - the priest is, under church law, mandated to report the conversation. If a man tells a priest "I killed my wife" - the priest doesn't have to report it because it's a past sin.

  This would also depend on the state where the sin takes place, and the outlook of the priest.

  Catholic priests are instructed that there are four types of ‘professional secret’ 1) Natural secret 2) Promised secret 3) Contracts of secrecy 4) Confessional secrecy - hilliary step

  What do these mean in common English thought?

  The response - you might have guessed it, was to quote the legality of clergy entitlement to ‘secrecy’ of past crimes. A secret that was admitted to millions of people - go figure. - hilliary step

  Ah, but they did the "elder thing" when talking about the secrets of other people. Just leave the name out - and you can talk all you want. Go figure - applause and selling - well worth the effort.

  waiting
• 

  waiting

  Hello MDS,

  Jehovah's Witnesses, the Watchtower Society and Governing Body, ARE NOT A CHRISTIAN ORGANIZATION - mds

  A fine true statement. The WTBTS is a religious organization, using relgion to gather & keep a firm hold on it's followers.

  Our "reputation" stinks in the world. EVERYBODY dislikes us. Because we never "get involved," we never help anyone. We never let "our light shine" before men at all. - mds

  Not around here. Most people don't think about jw's, and those that do only know what they've been told, generally. And, they see nicely dressed, quiet people politely standing on street corners or knocking on doors to "help" people.

  You are correct that we don't get involved, not helping people. But that fact, in itself, doesn't mean that everybody dislikes jw's. A lot of "worldly people" don't get involved helping people.

  That's why you baffled as to what to say about our defenseless "situation." - mds

  Naaaaa, it's Maximus that baffles me. Likeable fellow, but a bit too deep imho.

  Thanks for talking with me, MDS, you made some fine points.

  waiting
• 

  hillary_step

  Hello Waiting,

  I said : Catholic priests are instructed that there are four types of ‘professional secret’ 1) Natural secret 2) Promised secret 3) Contracts of secrecy 4) Confessional secrecy - hilliary step

  What do these mean in common English thought?

  1) Natural Secret
  A secret that is kept by 'natural law' or the nature of the thing itself. For example, you may accidentally find out that your best friend is having treatment for cancer but choose to not reveal your discovery to them or to others because of the displeasure and pain it may bring to them.

  2) Promised Secret - a much lighter obligation involved here. For example, your friend may divulge to you that they have failed their driving test and then ask you to promise not to tell the rest of the office.

  3) Professional Secret - consists of information obtained by reason of office or professian. Lawyers, doctors etc, frequently deal with this sort of promise. A priest may hear such a secret and still choose to divulge it but only when he is not
  in a confessional capacity.

  4) Confessional Secret - secrets divulged to a priest during a confessional. These secrets can never be divulged under any circumstances without the express request of the confessor.

  It seems to me that the 'secrets' divulged to the WTS Judicial Committee do not consitute a Confessional Secret but a Professional secret.

  Hope that this helps. -- HS