hanging onto old thought processes

by rebel8 17 Replies latest jw experiences

  • Etude
    Etude

    "I went to college several years later, which just expanded my already existing ability to use critical thinking."

    Rebel8, you're onto something there. Bolh you and Zagor picked an excellent topic. You already concede that you had the ability to think critically. It's possible you would have come to the same conclusions had you not gone to college. What it boils down to is the individual. That's why the whole world is not in one cult or another (although, that's debatable). Personally, I have found many a "free thinker" and I have determined that I'm thinking critically now more than ever.

    I recently wrote about my sister (No. 6) who is now (thread here and here) recently escaping "The Village". I always thought of her as intelligent, but realized that she as well as other individuals somehow manage to suppress their logical instincts and rationalize everything in order to retain their illusion. That's the power of emotion. However, it only goes so far. That's why she has finally awaken.

    It has nothing to do with formal education, unless you count the process of "life-long learning". That's when someone does not stop reading and seeking out knowledge on their own without the benefit of formal education. Eventually, you're going to do something with it.

    Zagor: I read your thread and there are many good points in it. I think you may be describing an actual mechanism, what you call cognitive vacuum, which explains how cults get in your head in the first place. I just can't help but think why one person falls for it and another doesn't. To me, it all comes down to the individual, regardless of their educational level. Perhaps some of us have not developed to the point of reasoning with sufficient conviction to say: "Hey, wait a minute there." I can see where the power of emotions can dominate what one may describe as "that little voice in your head" that tells you otherwise.

    In that thread I started a about my sister, I may not have mentioned how she rationalized and actually was conscious enough to suppress her ideas because she thought that it was something she needed to do in order to become what she had envisioned. Because of that, I don't think everyone who falls for a cult simply "vacates" and accepts everything, line, hook and sinker. Many have to accommodate their thinking in order to make it fit their belief system and at the same time satisfy some deep seated desire. That makes clear to me the actions of the JW researcher you speak about. The evidence is there, but he chooses to interpret it another way, one that conforms with his belief system. It may be logical, but based on false premises, it will lead to the wrong conclusion.

    That is no different than what happens in any other population. I have lots of friends with whom I correspond who have a totally skewed view when it comes to political subjects. They send out these E-mails blasting somebody or other and I just calmly and effectively show them research that shows they're full of shit. One such fact I discovered was of a poll taken six months after the infamous 9/11 event which showed that more than 70% of the American people believed that Iraq was responsible for the attacks on N.Y., PA, and the Pentagon. Not much critical thinking going on there. And guess who was responsible for that little idea?

    The scientific community is no different. Recently, my sister sent me an article from the N.Y. Times that referred to a scientist's claim that OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder) may be cause by a strep virus (based on a statistical study of children who had strep and have OCD). In the same article, another scientist says that if you study children who fell out of a tree and broke a bone, you will also find a population that has OCD. The conclusion would be that falling out of trees can cause OCD. I know that this one boils down to the interpretation that the scientist is leaning toward. But I also know that at times it comes down to intellectual integrity and how fair-minded (how much of a critical thinker) the scientist is. It's all relative but it's still an individual endeavor.

    Etude.

  • rebel8
    rebel8
    It has nothing to do with formal education

    I can't say that's true in my case. I know I was a free thinker and made my way out of the borg before going to college. Obviously it was not necessary for me to go to college to escape the cult.

    However, I learned a lot about critical thinking in college. It taught me the scientific method, how psychology skews our thoughts/beliefs, and how to evaluate evidence being presented to me. I didn't know any of those things before going to college. I just had a vague idea that something was terribly wrong and illogical with the borg, was extremely miserable, and left because of that. It wasn't until I went to college that I really was able to prove my belief that the WTS isn't "the truth".

    I'm not saying people cannot learn these things without going to college, it's just much more unlikely they will. It's less likely a person will set up a full time curriculum of thorough study for themselves, touching upon subjects they may not even be interested in or accessing a wide enough spectrum of scholarly literature, and seek out opportunities to engage in group discussions on these topics with others who are studying the same things.

    A former or current JW attending college or trying to educate himself/herself has the additional task of unlearning falsehoods and erroneous methods of analyzing information.

  • Etude
    Etude

    rebel8: I understand. Your experience has a lot of merit. The path you found for achieving a better way of thinking involved a formal method that required academic discipline.

    It was different for me. I learned about the Scientific Method in High School. I graduated in 1970 and was deep into the "Borg". I faced going to jail for not going to the Army and Viet Nam. I didn't go to college until 1978 and I was still a Witness attending meetings. In the mean time (right after High School), I "pioneered", managed to spend 2 and a half years in Bethel, and most importantly, I read like crazy. I read heavy stuff (Cosmology, Quantum Physics, Biology, etc). The important thing I noticed was the language used in magazines like Scientific American and other literature. I learned how far one could go without stepping out of a formalism that would negate one's argument or conclusions.

    I suppose that kind of criticality is what eventually led me to leave Bethel (I had a lot of issues there) until I could bring myself to leave the Organization altogether. Of course, I didn't know too many people who would attend college after going to Bethel and still attended meetings. I caught a little hell for it and eventually, I just left NY and headed West where I managed to get lost.

    I grant you this: I took a Logic class once that enlightened me in a way I would not have conceived, at least not as concretely. I was finally able to put names to ideas I knew but could not make more material. The formality of Logic has given me a weapon that I can use to combat the ill-formed opinions of my rabidly political friends. I wish everyone was forced to take such a lesson in a formal setting. I value formal education highly, but I realize that it's not the only way to achieve higher reasoning powers and intellectual discrimination. I've known individuals with high degrees who can't wipe their asses without a set of instructions. On the other hand, there are many famous scientists and discoverers who were "self-taught" and achieved things important enough to have a place in history (Thomas Edison, Charles Babbage, Michael Faraday). Of course it's not so easy today. I can't imagine (unless there's an unusual gift) that someone can just jump into some scientific discipline without the benefit of formal education. Scientific ideas and technology are just too complicated today. I don't think that's true regarding the Arts (music, painting, etc). Unfortunately, for the rest of us, formal education, although it's not a guarantee, is our best bet.

    Whichever way it's achieved, there's no doubt that thinking clearly is a most important weapon to defeat false information specially that which comes from cults. The WTBTS had a ring of truth for me, way back when, and I can see why they don't want their followers to obtain higher education. I don't think that they're afraid they'll be found out. I think that they just couldn't handle the questions and arguments from "educated" people that would reveal their "Swiss cheese" universe.

    Etude.

  • rebel8
    rebel8

    How did you avoid going to jail, if you don't mind my asking? Peace Corps?

    Funny, I used to read Scientific American too, right after leaving the borg. I wasn't in college at the time; I just liked to read things to help me think. I read a lot from the library about psychology and philosophy too.

    There were a few things in particular about college that really expanded my mind. Basic philosophy where we debated the question of evil. Statistics and research methodology, where we learned when it is appropriate to draw conclusions about evidence. That was really important, because a lot of wts literature and informal teachings draw conclusions based upon anectdotes rather than actual evidence. Psychology helped too--really learned a lot about groupthink. Anthropology was awesome too--I did a project on JWs being a cult.

  • dorayakii
    dorayakii
    Here is how Winston Smith described doublethink in the novel:

    George Orwell's novel "1984" is one of my favourite books. I find a lot of parallels with the thought-processas of the Watchtower leadership, in Orwell's well thought out characters...

    it goes on to say:

    "By using the word, one admits that one is tampering with reality; but by a fresh act of doublethink one erases this knowledge; and so on indefinitely, with the lie always one leap ahead of the truth."

    this is so true... i see it all the time at the meetings, brothers on the platform contradicting what they have just said, but with the whole audience nodding along and going "mmm, good point"....

    An example is when something is said to be acceptable to Jehovah because of a specific reason (for instance eating pork is no longer a sin because Jesus' new law has done away with the mosaic law) then something else is unacceptable to Jehovah for the exact same reason (the prohibition on eating/transfusing blood is always supported by, none other than the mosaic law, which has supposedly been done away with [Leviticus 17:10-14]!!)

    Yet another example, is when we are encouraged to do research to make sure the things we are believe are true... but "discouraged" from reading any other material apart from the things that we should already believe are true!!! Catch 22

    But coming back to the point. We were indoctrinated at the "service meeting" to try and tear down the "false religious beliefs" of people in the ministry, and now even being mentally free from the WTS, i still seem to have a high intolerance for people believing something different to what i believe. Its a shame, but i still feel sensitive when preople say something against an idea or princple that i hold dear. Its an accute feeling that i'm being attacked directly, and my first reaction is to try, sometimes even using strong language, to convince them that I AM RIGHT.

    In the two years, i've learnt to just shut up... to stop and to listen to what other people have to say instead of thinking that everything that comes out of their mouth is going to be against a cherished belief that i have (or had)...

    The feeling even surges up here on JWD. Although most of us have been dubs, now, we have all gone off in different directions. Some are christians, some believe the bible still, some are atheists, some have become bhuddists and some don't have a prescibed belief system... Its been a real challenge to be here and just criticise the Watchtower, instead of flaming people left, right and centre, for still beliving in Jesus or in a Creator... i can now allow myself to participate in conversations without feeling like im being attacked and without feeling that i should "stand up for what is right" or more accurately "stand up for what i think is right".

    dorayakii of the "eternal, internal struggle" class

  • Etude
    Etude

    Rebel8:

    Besides the main articles, I loved the "Mathematical Games" in Scientific American. I think that's what it was called when Gardner used to write for it. Then he passed the torch to Hofstadter. Years before, I had read a tome called "Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid" by Hofstadter and realized that it was the same guy on the S.A. column. That book got me thinking about thinking and what the process is that makes us discover and understand relationships between objects and between ideas.

    I also read Descartes (The Method...) and that was as close to philosophy as I got. Later I had a bit of exposure to Berkley (Cause and Effect). My approach to philosophy comes from a different angle. I read Einstein's writings on Relativity with a foreword by Neils Bohr and realized that science does not answer all the questions. Now I needed to go beyond and come up with plausible explanations. The main thing I'm proud of that I garnered from such investigations is that it's OK if the answer is "I don't know". I'm not a fan of psychology, particularly analysis (there's a lot of crock there), although I see the importance of it when it comes to identifying motivators in human behavior.

    Regarding the military, actually, I just lucked out. Because of my JW successful indoctrination, I was not even willing to accept "alternative service" (ex. working at a military hospital). That means that I would have had to leave the country or go to jail. I was in the lottery system and got number 18. There was no chance I wasn't going to be called. As it turned out, after filing as a conscientious objector and appearing before the local and appeal boards on several occasions, my physical test was not good enough and I received a 4F classification. I didn't have anything wrong with me, but I think the fact that I was just getting over a bad cold when I took the test affected the results.

    College was a bit unusual for me. Because I was older than most students and less gullible about life after the Bethel experience, it seemed easier and was willing to challenge my professors about what they were teaching. On one occasion, in a Biology class, one student told me to sit down and shut up, when I asked the professor a question, because I was taking up the class' time. I told him that I would not because I went there to learn to think and that if all he wanted was to have some facts along with a piece of paper that said he graduated, I wanted more and I was not about to give it up. I had the respect of my professor after that. I concentrated in Mathematics and Music.

    Etude.

  • out of the box
    out of the box

    dorayakii, I loved your post! The Eagles song states it all: LEARN TO BE STILL!!!

  • Etude
    Etude

    Dorayakii:

    You put forth a very interesting point. I felt and still feel at times (though rarely) the same as you describe, wanting to fend off an affront to my personal belief when someone challenges me. Although I have learned an effective way to deal with that and approach ideas more clearly, I had never thought about the reasons why someone, me, may feel that way until you presented the issue here.

    I imagine that it's a natural tendency to feel protective and defensive when some part of our core belief is challenged. That very admission to myself makes me ease-off when I'm challenged and makes me question my own position. Then there are the teachings with which we have been inured. There's a reason why JWs and other cults repeat the same shit over and over again. Somehow, it bypasses the logical centers and becomes autonomic. I recall having a gut reaction and a curt reply when I was still a Witness and someone at the door would say something bad about Charles T. Russell (obviously they knew more about him than I did at the time). I remember being aware of the moment and being slightly surprised at my reaction. I suppose that such behavior is also a natural consequence of being a JW or any group that uses the same tactics.

    I also think that a person's experience, how he or she was shaped mentally and not necessarily by a cult, determines their inclination to react poorly at being intellectually spanked. I face that constantly with good friends that I ride motorcycles with but can't carry on a dialog over E-mail on subjects like religion or politics without being totally polarized. Like you, I've learned to keep quite when needed long enough to determine if what was said is even worth a response. If it is, most of the time it's because the person challenged me sufficiently to evoke ideas that are worth exchanging. Other times, it's because that person needs to be either more informed or dressed down. I only take the gloves off with my friends, though.

    After being so certain about what the future would hold when I was a JW and after being so devastatingly deceived, I've come to be in a place where I can sincerely doubt everything. I feel very much like Descartes: I know I exists ("Cogito ergo sum"), but I'm not too sure about you or anyone else. I believe you exist along with the rest of the world as I perceive it, but I can't prove it. That premise makes me less assailable and more accepting. Old habits die hard, they say. So, I may slip up once in a while.

    Etude.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit