What does Josephus say about 586/87 BCE?

by ithinkisee 24 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • bennyk
    bennyk

    Thanks for posting the quotes, JCanon.

    The excerpt from "Antiquities" indicates SEVENTY years of SERVITUDE.

    The two excerpts from "Against Apion" indicate that the FIFTY years DESOLATION of the temple (and Jerusalem, one hastens to add) occured DURING the those same seventy years of servitude. ("during the interval of seventy years" -- NOT: FOR an interval of seventy years.) The seventy years of servitude began before the desolation of Jerusalem. Cf. Jer. 27:1,6-8 [note past perfect tense in vs 6] and 28:1,2,11 [where the servitude is already under way].

    [Incidentally, the 1971 Large-print NWT has the running heading "seventy years of servitude" rather than "captivity" (this from memory - the 1971 book is not before me).]

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    The people who believe with all their heart that the chronology dating the fall of Jerusalem in 587 BCE must dismiss Josephus any way they can since he absolutely claims the 70 years the Bible does beginning with the last deportation.

    But since you believe that Jerusalem fell in 529 BC (assuming an even shorter Persian period than historians believe), you must also dismiss Josephus who (as I just explained above) assumed an even greater length of the Persian period, placing the first year of Cyrus in the 570s or 580s BC and the fall of Jerusalem sometime in the seventh century BC.

  • JCanon
    JCanon
    But since you believe that Jerusalem fell in 529 BC (assuming an even shorter Persian period than historians believe), you must also dismiss Josephus who (as I just explained above) assumed an even greater length of the Persian period, placing the first year of Cyrus in the 570s or 580s BC and the fall of Jerusalem sometime in the seventh century BC.

    If I'm understanding you correctly, you are partially correct, though I do not know specifically what the reference is. It depends upon which reference by Josephus one is looking at.

    So just for clarification, I am only considering the single reference to the 70 years' interval from the last deportation to the 1st of Cyrus mentioned at Antiquities 11.1.1. This reference likewise assigns 70 years of "servitude" to Nebuchadnezzar and his sons and amazingly claims this is the fulfillment of Jeremiah's prophecy of the 70 years.

    In regard to this single reference, I agree with Josephus and have the position that the Bible likewise inserts the 70 years here, that is, 70 years from the last deportation, year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar to the 1st of Cyrus when the Jews were released. In this very specific and narrow reference, if Jerusalem's fall is dated to 529BCE, year 19 (which is permissible via the VAT4956 double-reference to 511BCE, year 37 of Nebuchadnezzar), then the 1st of Cyrus falls in 455BCE. 455BCE, of course, works Biblically for the prophecy about the Messiah, well known to Jehovah's witnesses for beginning the "70 weeks" prophecy. They too date the interval between the baptism of Christ in 29CE and 455BCE as beginning that prophecy. But here, technical deviations of specific context expand.

    So whether or not it turns out Josephus contradicts himself elsewhere and later or even the Bible, as he does, this particular reference relating to the seventy years is all I'm referencing and comparing here. His other references have to be specifically addressed on a line-by-line discussion and not generalized. As I noted above, a true "revision" and contradiction between Anitiquies and Against Apion is the rule of Ewil-Merodach which he reduces to 2 years in Against Apion but states is "eighteen years" in Antiquities.

    So yes, Josephus is a "mixed bag" as a reference but he seems to have come through for us for the most part regarding the 70 years and reflecting the Bible's chronology on this.

    JC

  • JCanon
    JCanon

    Hello Benny, thanks for the references:

    The two excerpts from "Against Apion" indicate that the FIFTY years DESOLATION of the temple (and Jerusalem, one hastens to add) occured DURING the those same seventy years of servitude. ("during the interval of seventy years" -- NOT: FOR an interval of seventy years.) The seventy years of servitude began before the desolation of Jerusalem. Cf. Jer. 27:1,6-8 [note past perfect tense in vs 6] and 28:1,2,11 [where the servitude is already under way].

    I can empathize a bit because sometimes comparing one reference to another it gets confusing. So let me just note that some things are basically taken for granted. For instance, Nebuchadnezzar began deporting Jews in his accession year when he deported Daniel and the young children. There was another deportation in his year 7 of Ezekiel, then in year 8 when he deported king Jehoiachin. After sieging Jerusalem, there was a deportation in both the 18th year and the 19th years when he deported Zedekiah. Finally the last deportation is listed in year 23, some four years after the fall of Jerusalem (Jer. 52:30)

    So, since seventy years is a specific period of time and cannot equally apply to all of these deportations, one then attempts to try to identify just when the specific 70 years of Jeremiah's prophecy began to apply. Was it with the deportation of Daniel, the first deportation that the 70 years began? Or were the 70 years fulfilled upon those last deported so that they at least had 70 years of prophesied servitude?

    At this point, without going to the Bible just yet, if we consult Jewish history via Josephus in the matter to see what he says about the prophecy, the servitude and the 70 years, Antiquities 11.1.1 says it is associated with the last poor people removed off the land. Thus the 70 years of "servitude" is the same 70 years of the complete depopulation of the land of Jews. Before that, Judah and Jerusalem were at least partially populated. Now that's where Josephus begins the 70 years per Jewish traditional history or whatever. But that does not dispel that some kingdoms and peoples were already under the yoke of Nebuchadnezzar earlier. This is just about the 70 years. So yes, you could say "general" servitude began much earlier than the last deportation, but we are dealing specifically with the 70 year interval that ends with the 1st of Cyrus. Specifically in that regard, your references in Jeremiah do not mention specifically the 70 years but only acknowledge the ongoing servitude already for some people under Nebuchadnezzar. I'm not dismissing that or contradicting it. Only noting that the application of the 70 years to the last deportation simply means some people were under "servitude" to Babylon much longer. So while a general servitude is recognized since the time Daniel was deported, the specific 70-year period of servitude is only applied to those of the last deportation.

    I in turn believe this application best reflects the Biblical dating for those specific 70 years as well, that is, from the last deportation to the 1st of Cyrus is 70 years. If that contradicts the primary Babylonian records, which we already know came from later periods (i.e. Cyrus Cylindar, Babylonian Chronicles, Nabonidus Chronicles) then that's anothe discussion: "Josephus and the Bible versus Babylon and all it's historians" -- but that's another long topic.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    JCanon....See my first post to this thread, that is what I was referring to.

  • JCanon
    JCanon
    josephus is just as sloppy with dates as the bible is.

    You might be able to say this if one presumes the Persian government did not revise their records and that the Jews wanted to cooperate with it. In that case you have two kinds of history, one that is "politically correct" and one that might self-contradict with a few of the original true facts. Thus you can't always take every statement for face value. It's so confusing, my position has been to simply stand back and list the "options" that are there and let people decide what they want in line with other references. But one mustn't presume everything that is confusing is "sloppiness", unless it was an intentional sloppiness to hide secret details. So I would agree about the sloppiness of Josephus (not the Bible though) except there are too many coincidences that again line up with the second chronology I believe to be true. For instance, Josephus claims in Antiquities an 18-year rule for Evil-Merodach. Everybody else including Josephus himself later in Against Apion says he ruled just 2 years. And that includes Babylonian records, though "copies" occuring in later periods after the fact. So you have a contradiction. On the other "galaxy, far far away on the other side of the universe" though, Biblicalists who are looking at the chronology for this period by deduction have reassigned additional years to some of the Babylonian kings and it turns out that that timeline requires an 18-year rule for Evil-Merodach. So you can't just dismiss the 18-year reference in Antiquities as a mere guess. Did Josephus actually have records of this 18-year rule? Here's how this works. We take, of course, the 70 years from the last deportation to the 1st of Cyrus and add 4 years to get 74 years from the fall of Jerusalem in year 19. The Bible indicates year 37 of Jehoiachin's exile is the year Nebuchadnezzar died. His exile corresponds with the rule of Zedekiah who in year 19 was in his 11th year. A difference of 8 years. So year 37 plus 8 gives you 45 years. This is 2 years longer than the traditional history. We subtract 18 years from 45 to get the first 27 years of our 74 years. We add in 4 years for Niglassar, which is not challenged, and 6 years for the rule of Darius the Mede per the Bible which gives us 37 years. Now Nabonidus is said to have ruled 17 years but this is 2 years too short when you calculate the time from Babylonian records and include the 6-year rule of Darius the Mede. The records claim Cyrus began a 20-year rule in the 6th year of Nabonidus following by his kingship in Babylon (i.e. 559-539BCE). If we add 5 years to 20 to get 25 years from the beginning of Nabonidus' rule to the 1st of Cyrus and then subtract the six years of Darius the Mede, we get a 19-year rule for this period. Thus we add an extra two years to the rule of Nabonidus. 19 plus 37 is 56. That only leaves the rule of Evil-Merodach, normally considered just 2 years. We determine the length of his rule by deduction by subtracting 56 from 74 which is 18 years. Precisely the number of years Josephus claims he ruled in Antiquities! So was this a mere "guess" or was Josephus relying on some historical references that indicated Evil-Merodach ruled for specifically 18 years? Regardless, it's a bit suspicious and you can't discount that Josephus might have known the rule for Evil-Merodach was 18 years before the chronology was revised. So it's a big mess...and it gets "sloppier" when Josephus comes into the picture, but he seems to consistently come up with the right numbers for certain references. So it's up to you how much credibility you presume about Josephus. JC

  • JCanon
    JCanon
    All of this shows that the actual length of time from the date of the exile or from Cyrus was not accurately known in the late Hellenistic and Roman periods, at least by these three writers.

    Very interesting references Leolaia! These references clearly contradict themselves as you say, which I have to accept.

    The only thing I would add to are the other "contradicting" references, that of Ant. 11.1.1 where Jospehus claims 70 years from the last deportation to the first of Cyrus. That's the only reference I'm matching up with Josephus as far as the Biblical timeline is concerned.

    But whether these historians actually "knew" or not is up for grabs. I found a rather interesting comparison of a Rabbinical timeline that reduced the Persian Period drastrically on the surface, but consistently matches the 529BCE fall of Jerusalem and other dates with simple conversion. Thus under an oppressive rule, where say Josephus was required to harmonize his history with all others, some historians might compromise in this regard or make deductions, on the surface of things. But if they actually had more authority for a more accurate chronology, they would sometimes insinuate this in some cryptic manner in the same work. So one would have to check for those secret references. The Jews in particular, who always had "gentiles" (goyim) snooping around in their records might have created a superifical reference for the gentiles to understand but which had a hidden meaning for the learned Jewish insider. Of course, it's possible with all the revisions and confusions the true chronology was lost.

    But havign noted that, I would simply place the Bible's chronology in this list as a "secular" historical source from the Jews as well and compare that chronology to these historians. So what it will boil down to, looking at all the histories, is who agrees with the Bible and who doesn't and when. Case in point, Josephus contradicts the Bible's own chronology several times, that's obvious. But other times his references seem to be right on point. So in the case of Josephus and the 70 years, I'd just say that he again contradicts himself if he assigns only 70 years from the last deportation to the first of Cyrus in Antiquities 11.1.1.

    Does that mean we can dismiss Josephus as a reliable historian? You can. Certainly. Does that mean everything he reports is unreliable? Not necessarily.

    Even so, with all his unreliable contradictions, which allows us not to take him so seriously or for face value, that doesn't mean we can misquote him. Claiming that he changed his mind about assigning 70 years of desolation post the fall of Jeruaslem to fifty years is not accurate. He consistently asserted that position. The "fifty years" reference can be explained if you end it when Cyrus becomes king of Persia, since there was a 20-year difference between when he became king in Persia and king in Babylon. Of course, we can claim he got confused between paragraph 19 and 21 and actually did contradict himself without correction, I suppose, but you still have to consider other scenarios in this case.

    If Josephus followed Jewish tradition, which disdained the "unclean" outsiders, then besides altering his works so as to get published by not being obviously contradicting when possible, he might have delighted in including references that totally tripped up some readers while hiding secrets in his works for those that knew better. It's having one set of rules for dealing with Jews and another set of rules not binding on them for dealing with gentiles. If they misread what is written, that's their problem!

    JC

  • JCanon
    JCanon

    RELATIVE VS ABSOLUTE CHRONOLOGY

    I just wanted to add that, in general, you have to make a distinction between "relative chronology" and "absolute chronology." Absolute chronology has to do with specific dates for certain events. Relative chronology deals with the intervals between dates. So there are two aspects to that.

    Thus, say, if Josephus claims there is 70 years from the last deportation to the 1st of Cyrus and he dates the 1st of Cyrus in 537BCE, then there are two chronologies to agree with nor disagree with. You may not agree with the 1st or Cyrus in the specific date of 537BCE, but you might agree that the 70-year interval from year 23 to the 1st of Cyrus is accurate, only you connect that chronology to other dating.

    So when I compare Josephus with the Bible or contrast with secular history, I just note where there aer similarities and where there are differences and move on from there. There's nothing else that can be done. But misquoting him is another story.

    For instance the witnesses use Josephus' reference to the 70 years to generally show the Jews understood this to be a literal 70 years of desolation after the fall of Jerusalem. But they differ from Josephus in that Josephus begins the 70 years with the last deportation, year 23, and Jehovah's witnesses date the 70 years with the fall of Jerusalem in year 18/19.

    Or with the presumption that began this post acknowledging Josephus' original reference to the 70 years then indicating that after years of study and research he realized he was incorrect and corrected himself in his last work because he mentions 50 years of desolation is not quite accurate when his last mention of the 70 years is in the previous paragraph. You know, let the man be as wrong as he needs to be, but don't misrepresent him, right?

    JC

  • bennyk
    bennyk

    "Against Apion" 1:19 indicates that Nabolassar sent his son Nubuchadnezzar "against Egypt and against our land [Judea], with a great army, upon his [Nebolassar's] being informed that they had revolted from him; and how, by that means, he subdued them all, and set our temple that was at Jerusalem on fire &c"

    Clearly Nebolassar's sending of his son Nebuchadnezzar preceded his own death, which death occurred before Nebuchadnezzar's rule as king, and consequently many years before Nebuchadnezzar's nineteenth year. The revolt was against the "servitude", under which yoke the Jews already were suffering as vassals of Babylon.

    The accounts in Josephus indicate that the temple (and Jerusalem) lay desolate FIFTY years (Apion 1:21), which fifty years were a part of the SEVENTY years of SERVITUDE (Antiquities 11:1:1). Apion 1:19 does NOT contradict this; it confirms that the fifty year's period of desolation occurred "during the interval of seventy years". The quotes you submitted do not indicate seventy years of "desolation", nor of "deportation" or 'captivity' (whether of a specific group, or viewed in the aggregate), but of servitude.

  • JCanon
    JCanon
    "Against Apion" 1:19 indicates that Nabolassar sent his son Nubuchadnezzar "against Egypt and against our land [Judea], with a great army, upon his [Nebolassar's] being informed that they had revolted from him; and how, by that means, he subdued them all, and set our temple that was at Jerusalem on fire &c"

    As read it might seem this all occurred at one time, I will admit. But per the Bible and other records, Jerusalem was destroyed later during the reign of Nebuchadnezzar (year 18-19). Babylonian records themselves record the deportations and interactions with the Jews in later years. Since the Bible indicates that Daniel was exiled in the "third year of Jehoiakim" which compares to the accession year of Nebuchadnezzar, the above context of Nebuchadnezzar as crown prince beginning this invasion is loosely consistent with the context as Josephus relates it. Further since Josephus himself is more specific about the spcific chain of events, one has to consider whether he is imply something specifically different here or just sumarizing. I'll leave it up to you. But it is known that this "servitude" began during the last year of the reign of Nabopolassar per the records, so I see where this can be confusing but not as a substantitive contradiction of so many other correlated references.

    Clearly Nebolassar's sending of his son Nebuchadnezzar preceded his own death, which death occurred before Nebuchadnezzar's rule as king, and consequently many years before Nebuchadnezzar's nineteenth year. The revolt was against the "servitude", under which yoke the Jews already were suffering as vassals of Babylon.

    JC

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