In reply bo beenyK:
I really don't see Antiq. 11:1:1 as requiring the complete depopulation of Judea, only an exile of (some --not all) Jews.
There is little choice here in the reference because of the context of a previous reference in Ant. 10.9.7. Here's the entire passage, but note the concept reference of the people being "removed off their land." It was in reference when the 10-tribe were removed from their land and then when Judah was finally removed from their land, meaning the last people were deported off the land and no one was left. This also contains the 23rd year campaign of Nebuchadnezzar where it notes the Jews in Egypt were deported to Babylon this year, thus those of the last deportation were those few remaining ones, the "poor" ones mentioned in Ant. 11.1.1 who "went off their land" to serve 70 years.
7. And when they were there, God signified to the prophet that the king of Babylon was about making an expedition against the Egyptians, and commanded him to foretell to the people that Egypt should be taken, and the king of Babylon should slay some of them and, should take others captive, and bring them to Babylon; which things came to pass accordingly; for on the fifth year after the destruction of Jerusalem, which was the twenty-third of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar, he made an expedition against Celesyria; and when he had possessed himself of it, he made war against the Ammonites and Moabites; and when he had brought all these nations under subjection, he fell upon Egypt, in order to overthrow it; and he slew the king that then reigned (16) and set up another; and he took those Jews that were there captives, and led them away to Babylon. And such was the end of the nation of the Hebrews, as it hath been delivered down to us, it having twice gone beyond Euphrates; for the people of the ten tribes were carried out of Samaria by the Assyrians, in the days of king Hoshea; after which the people of the two tribes that remained after Jerusalem was taken [were carried away] by Nebuchadnezzar, the king of Babylon and Chaldea. Now as to Shalmanezer, he removed the Israelites out of their country, and placed therein the nation of the Cutheans, who had formerly belonged to the inner parts of Persia and Media, but were then called Samaritans, by taking the name of the country to which they were removed; but the king of Babylon, who brought out the two tribes, (17) placed no other nation in their country, by which means all Judea and Jerusalem, and the temple, continued to be a desert for seventy years; but the entire interval of time which passed from the captivity of the Israelites, to the carrying away of the two tribes, proved to be a hundred and thirty years, six months, and ten days.
Compare this to Antiquities 11.1.1
1. IN the first year of the reign of Cyrus (1) which was the seventieth from the day that our people were removed out of their own land into Babylon, God commiserated the captivity and calamity of these poor people, according as he had foretold to them by Jeremiah the prophet, before the destruction of the city, that after they had served Nebuchadnezzar and his posterity, and after they had undergone that servitude seventy years, he would restore them again to the land of their fathers, and they should build their temple, and enjoy their ancient prosperity.
See? The seventy years is connected with when the "people went off their land" meaning the last deportation.
That passage also refers to their repariation ("he would restore them again to the land of their fathers"), but we know that very many of the Jews remained in the 'diaspora', albeit voluntarily (e.g. Daniel).
Sorry, you are not correct, but this is understandable.
The end of the 70 years did not occur when Babylon was overthrown but not until 6 years later after a 6-year-rule by Darius the Mede. Remember, the 70 years did not begin until 4 years after the fall of Jerusalem when the last people were deported off the land. Thus Zech. 1 dated 70 years after the fall the Jerusalem is just the 2nd year of Darius the Mede. Year 4 of Darius the Mede was 70 years after the mourning for Gedaliah in the seven mth per Zech. 7, that mourning thus began 2 years after the fall of Jerusalem. But the Jews were still in exile at this time. Darius the Mede was the grandson of Nebuchadnezzar via a state marriage with the daughter of Nebuchadnezzar and the king of the Medes, as well, Nabonidus was still at large and may have still been recognized as the official ruler until Cyrus finally came to the throne and put him under house arrest. Thus the 70 years ends specifically when the "royalty of Persia began to reign" (2 Chronicles 36:20) The "royalty of Persia" is specific reference to "Cyrus the Persian" and not a reference to "Darius the Mede" though both conquered Babylon at the same time. "Nebuchadnezzar and his sons" or posteriity thus included Evil-Merodach, Niglassar, Nabonidus (son-in-law), Belshazar (grandson) and Darius the Mede (grandson). When those Babylonian kings were finally replaced by Cyrus then that was the official end of the 70 years. The Jews were in exile until that time.
As far as Daniel is concerned, he was free to go back and forth to Jerusalem if he wanted, but Babylon might have been more practical for him in his old age and as you noted, some Jews remained in the diapora. But Daniel did travel to Jerusalem with the first expedition to Jerusalem in the first of Cyrus apparently as a "Daniel" is included as one of the key figures who attested to the seal set up by Nehemiah when they first returned (Neh. 10:6). Of course, there are lots of Daniels but the context fits that he was a man of importance. But most pertinently, it was Daniel who was supposed to officially begin the count of the "70 weeks" when he observed the "going forth of the word to rebuild Jerusalem." That suggests he would have to have been in Jerusalem when that official word to actually begin the work was given (i.e. groundbreaking ceremony). Further the prophecy of the "70 weeks" would have to begin in Daniel's lifetime for him to ..."you shuld know and have the insight that frmo the going forth of the word to retore and to rebuild Jerusalem until the Messiah..." So whether all the Jews returned at that time or not or just visited and remained in Babylon as a primary residence, the land was restored to them by Cyrus and it became their official cultural and religion center.
The prophecies as recorded in Jeremiah do not even require deportation and exile at all: pls cf. Jer. 27:7,8,11-13,17; 38:17,18.
Jeremiah 25 is the prophecy we are discussing and it specifically requires 70 years of desolation and those removed from the land would be serving for or at (your choice) Babylon for seventy years, along with surrounding nations also deported at this time. This is consistent with the recent archaeological findings at Ashkelon, a city in the Bible that was said to be devastated. They found a 70-80 years period of abandonment after a fire that ended with the Persian Period.
While these discussions are interesting, they really don't lead anywhere. The WTS' chronology is wrong not only because Jerusalem fell in 587 B.C.E., but more importantly, because Daniel chap. 4 has nothing to do with foreshadowing the Messianic Kingdom. See also Luke 21:8.
They may not lead you personally anywhere, but they lead others to understanding more details about what the Bible actually does teach. And YES it changes things, plus there is new research being published all the time. They are still digging in the Promised Land. So saying this "really doesn't lead anywhere" is more of a sign of weariness and frustration than the actual benefits of getting the details straight. Jerusalem did not fall in 587BCE, the VAT4956's double-dating to 511BCE proves his 19th year was originally in 529BCE. There is nothing you can do about it, the 511BCE dates preempt the 568BCE datings in the text and prove they were invented. 511BCE agrees with Biblical chronology starting the 70 weeks prophecy in the 1st of Cyrus, so the
true chronology from ancient sources now agrees specifically with the Biblical timeline. As far as Daniel 4 having to do with the foreshadowing the kingdom or not, that's a matter of doctrinal interpretation, so I respect your position to dismiss that conclusion, with the reseveration that you may be basing it on a superficial reference. So just in passing, the Bible does imply a "day for a year" concept for the Jews at Ezekiel 4. I think we would be remiss not to apply it to all the time prophecies to see at least how it turns out or if it is pertinent. For instance the "70 weeks" could be taken literally, the 490 days, but everybody knows it refers to the Messiah arriving much later, 483 years after the rebulding of Jerusalem began. That is a "day for a year." Once that premise has been set up, you would apply it to the other prophecies explained in "days" and fullfilled in years. Thus a "day for a year" applied to 2520 days from the fall of Babylon would date the second coming, depending upon when you think the fall of Jerusalem occurred, either in 607BCE, 587BCE or 529BCE in 1914, 1934 or 1992. Since the Messiah must arrived 45 years after the "end of the gentile times" which occured in 1947 and coordinate with the "7 times" prophecy, it is clear the second coming must occur after the Jews get reestablished in their homeland and in the 20th century. 45 years after 1947 is 1992. Retrospectively based upon that modern event and the year of the second coming dated to 1992, you could establishe the ancient date for the fall of Jerusalem 2520 years earlier. Funny to me, 2520 years from 1992 gives you 529BCE, the date that has no problem being
Biblically correct when you date the 1st of Cyrus in 455BCE where it belongs and add 70 years in its proper place to year 23 at the time of the last deportation. Thus the fall of Jerusalem in 529BCE can be dated by either the end of the gentile times in 1947 or by the appearance of Christ in 29CE, two dates far away from the confusion and aggressive revisionism of the Persian Period. Thanks for your thoughts. You may be frustrated with the new evidence and hopes of a final word on all this, but others benefit from having the choice regarding these matters when they hear all sides of the story. Hope you enjoyed your weeked! (I just saw this) JC
