CHRIST MUST HAVE BEEN RESURRECTED BODILY!!!!!!

by chuckyy 17 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • undercover
    undercover
    What about Dumbledore?

    Dumbledore is the wisest, but even he had to rely on Harry to save the school, Hagrid and any other crisis that befell the school. Of course Harry couldn't have done it without Hermione so we can give a nod to her too.

    But Samwise was the only ring-bearer who willingly gave up the ring of his own accord

    Would Sam have embarked on the journey of his own free will? Sam was the most devoted as he would have given his life to save Frodo. I guess he would have come in a close second.

    Sorry...I don't have book, chapter and verse to back up my claims...

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Leo

    I forgot about paul's 'change' that the dead physical body was supposed to undergo before being sent to heaven to clothe a saint. Naked spirits, there's a concept. Reminds one of sinful adam and eve. Before that, they never knew that they were naked.

    S

  • tetrapod.sapien
    tetrapod.sapien
    WTS says he materialized a body tailor made with nail holes in it simply for demonstration purposes.

    if that's the case, then how can anyone actually believe, or know for sure, that he was who he said he was?

    he said to them: 'Take hold of me; handle me and see that I am not a disembodied demon (daimónion asómaton)'. And immediately they touched him and believed, being closely united with his flesh and blood",

    this, of course, doesn't mean that he wasn't a demon is disguise. LOL, those credulous apostles!

    Would Sam have embarked on the journey of his own free will?

    but remember that frodo only took the ring as far as rivendell. by then he was greedy for the ring, and so when he agreed at the council to take the ring to mount doom, he was not acting of free will, but rather under the influence of the ring and sauron. whereas sam, again volunteered to go with him, even though the ring was not influencing him. LOL

  • hmike
    hmike
    The Society's teaching that Jesus was a spirit without a body and materialized different bodies to appear to them is the docetic heresy confronted in the gospels (cf. "Feel and see me, for a spirit (pneuma) does not have flesh and bones", Luke 24:39) and in Ignatius (cf. "For I know and believe that he was in the flesh even after the resurrection; and he came to Peter and those with him, he said to them: 'Take hold of me; handle me and see that I am not a disembodied demon (daimónion asómaton)'. And immediately they touched him and believed, being closely united with his flesh and blood", Smyrnaeans 3:1-2)

    Leolaia, if you're still checking on this thread, I see a problem with this statement from Ignatius. Paul had written, "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Cor. 15:50). Jesus stated that he was "flesh and bone." I think the omission of blood in the resurrection body is significant. It was established in the OT that blood was essential for life in any higher creature (e. g., Lev. 17:11). From their observations, the ancient people knew that if a human or animal lost enough blood, death would follow. (Today, we understand that, among the reasons, blood is essential because it brings life-sustaining oxygen to the cells and removes CO2 waste.) A resurrected or reconstructed body that is suitable for existence in the heavenly realms would have substance--some kind of flesh or other material--but would not need blood. As long as the body is dependent on blood for life, it means there is regeneration and cellular reproduction taking place, because cells die (they may have been observant enough to realize this based on what happens with skin and wounds). But a resurrection body--not subject to death--would not need that. Even if we don't consider the Bible as inspired by God, I think people of ancient times would equate all the degenerative processes of aging, disease, and bodily function failure (we would say "organ failure") somehow with blood. They may even have understood something of the blood-oxygen relationship based on their experiences from climbing high mountains. If breathing becomes difficult at higher elevations, what about being in heaven somewhere up in the sky?

    This is something that may make the manner of the torture and death of Jesus especially significant. With all the beatings, crown of thorns, and crucifixion, there would be a tremendous blood loss, not to mention the loss from the spear in the side. I don't know if it's ever been estimated how much blood would have been lost, but I think it was actually the cause of death rather than suffocation. Basically, Jesus was drained of blood, like the sacrificial animal, which wouldn't have come about by stoning or any other conventional means of slow execution. The body of Jesus still had flesh, muscle, and bone, but very little blood by the time it was laid in the tomb. So, when Ignatius writes "flesh and blood," I don't think he reasoned it out too well.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    hmike....That's an interesting thought, thanks for sharing it. As for Paul's use of the phrase "flesh and blood", it should be recalled also that this is a circumlocationary expression in Bible and rabbinics for "humanity", especially denoting the frail, weak condition of human beings in comparison to the magnificent divinity of God. See, for instance:

    "Every living thing grows old like a garment, the age-old law is 'Death must be'. Like foliage growing on a bushy tree, some leaves falling, others growing, so are the generations of flesh and blood; one dies, another is born" (Sirach 14:17-18).
    "What is brighter than the sun? Yet is suffers eclipse. Flesh and blood think of nothing but evil. He surveys the armies of the lofty sky, while all men are no more than dust and ashes" (Sirach 17:31-32).
    "Simon son of Jonah, you are a happy man! For it was not flesh and blood that revealed this to you but my Father in heaven" (Matthew 16:17).
    "May it be his will, that your fear of heaven be as much as your fear of flesh and blood" (Berachot 28b).

    Paul also appears to use this expression as well:

    "Then God ... called me to reveal his Son in me, so that I might preach the good news about him to the pagans. I did not stop to discuss this with any flesh and blood, not did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were already apostles before me" (Galatians 1:15-17).

    Compare:

    "For it is not against flesh and blood we are struggling, but against the Sovereignties and the Powers who originate in the darkness in this world, the spiritual army of evil in the heavens" (Ephesians 6:12).

    The reference to "flesh and blood" in 1 Corinthians 15:50 is thus often thought not to literally refer to bodies physically composed of flesh and liquid blood but to frail, perishable human beings who cannot inherit heaven in their current form (and thus must be "changed", v. 51); the paralleled clause in 50b "nor can corruption inherit incorruption" also reinforces this point. The wording is, of course, ambiguous between the two, but it is quite possible not to read it so literally.

    As for Ignatius' reference to Jesus' "flesh and blood" in his post-resurrection body, clearly he is here referring to the corporeality of his body as consisting of real flesh and real blood. But significantly, he also uses the expression in a mystical sense, having it symbolize "faith and love" (cf. Trallians 8:1; Romans 7:3; Smyrnaeans 12:2) and realized in Eucharistic terms. The most striking passage is the following: "I take no pleasure in the food of corruption nor yet in the pleasures of life. I want the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, of the seed of David; and for drink I want his blood, which is incorruptible love" (Romans 7:2). Compare Philadelphians 4:1: "Be eager to celebrate one Eucharist: for one is the flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one the cup for union through his blood". In a sense, Ignatius is following Paul, who also speaks in the present tense as the Eucharist cup as "participating in the blood of Christ" (1 Corinthians 10:16) and the person who disrespects the sacraments as "sinning against the body and blood of the Lord" (11:27), though Ignatius goes far beyond him in treating the flesh and blood as "flesh and spirit" and "faith and love". Thus Ignatius has an additional motive -- in addition to refuting docetism -- to refer to the blood of the risen Christ, for he viewed such "blood" as the love that Christ sends to the church and which the church experiences in unity through the Eucharist.

  • hmike
    hmike

    Thanks for the reply, Leolaia.

    So the phrase "flesh and bone" seems unique. Whether these are the actual words of a resurrected Jesus, or part of a fictional account, would you agree that this is significant in the understanding about the glorified body, esp. Jesus? From the references you quoted, it appears to me that it was meant to establish that the body of Jesus was indeed different from the one he had before, no longer subject to some of the normal human limitations, which would counter any kind of "swoon theory."

  • the_classicist
    the_classicist

    [quote]Smyrnaeans 3:1-2 this book is not in my bible, or any others that i have seen. tell me how i can look that up bethel minute[/quote] That's b/c it wasn't meant to be in the Bible, neither were the letters of the Apostles.

  • hmike
    hmike

    WTS says he materialized a body tailor made with nail holes in it simply for demonstration purposes.

    Do they realize that if they claim Jesus just gave the disciples what they expected to see, contrary to reality, it calls into question everything he said about events in the OT--creation, Noah and the flood, Jonah--meaning that these events didn't really happen and Jesus knew that, but just went along with it for the sake of his illustrations because that's what people believed?

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