Is vivisection ethical?

by greendawn 35 Replies latest social relationships

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  talesin

  SNG,

  Herein lies the problem .. this has become a debate, not what I would call a discussion. To me, a discussion is an exchange of ideas, which may or may not differ. I'm not really interested in debating and proving every single thought I express ..... okay?

  In RL, I sometimes like debating when I'm in the mood for it, but usually just enjoy listening to someone else's opinion, and saying something like "Cool, well, here's how I see it [explain]". Then, they say something like "Ah, I see what you mean, but no, I feel differently [elaborate]". Then, my reply, "Yeah, your viewpoint is interesting, but I don't really see it that way."

  Then, we move on. End of discussion.

  I finally figured out today, that on this board, it is easy to get sucked into debating, when I am only interested in exchanging ideas/thoughts/opinions. It's my goal to ensure that does not happen anymore.

  So, End of Discussion. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

  tal
• 

  upside/down

  Not to be a bunghole...but

  I am only interested in exchanging ideas/thoughts/opinions. It's my goal to ensure that does not happen anymore.

  I think it would read more accurately if you substituted "exchanging" for "giving my"...

  Talesin- you're my polar opposite on so many things...it doesn't mean I don't like you or value your thoughts...but you're way too "estrogen" and approach almost all "testosterone" tainted comments with almost pure emotion...and little "reason"...which is OK...just thought I'd point it out...seeing as that is a very Dub way of viewing the world... this is not intended as a slam or a taking of sides...but rather constructive criticism...

  I've been married 18 years and have 3 kids... so I've got the Mars / Venus thing down... you're VERY "Venus"...maybe too much...

  Always look at motive... no one here has a bad one (that I can see) and that means a LOT!

  u/d (of the just tryin to help class)
• 

  FlyingHighNow

  My sister in law loves animals. Long ago she wanted to be a vet. She wasn't accepted into vet school though, much to her sadness. She now works in the lab down at the University of Tennessee. She takes care of the animals they are using for research. She is in charge of making sure the animals are not tortured and that they are kept as comfortable as possible.

  I think that testing for cosmetics is really not necessary. But when it comes to testing for things that can save human lives, especially of children, I can't object. As long as no one is cruel to the animals who give their lives for a very good cause.
• 

  seattleniceguy

  Hey tal,

  Sorry if you saw anything other than discussion in my posts. Honestly, there was no emotion in it for me. I was just exploring the concepts, and I think I came out of it with a clearer understanding. Hope you got the same!

  SNG
• 

  tetrapod.sapien

  hmmm, yes tough one. the posts have been enlightening (esp, SNG and Tal), and have really made me think.

  on the one hand:

  • from an evolutionary perspective, we all share a common ancestor. veggies, insects and humans all came from the same place. we have all survived to this point. does this not make all life equal? yes, philosophically. but as SNG brought out, do we really treat all life equally? no, it's actually impossible to do so. so where do we draw the line? it's not quite fair to only care about the warm and fuzzy mammals, and not the ugly hexapods. but do we care when there is a moth splattered on our windshield? do we care when we hit bambi? yes, more so. it's our nature. i know that's not what the discussion is about, but we must admit at least, that we already to not treat all life fairly.
  • some medical treatments do still require animal testing. is this not an extension of evolution? the same animals that we would have hunted, killed and eaten to extend/sustain our lives, are now the animals being used to yet again sustain our lives.
  • is it not our obligation to take our miraculous conscious existence and run with it? to help our species live longer, and healthier, and smarter? would not other highly evolved species do the same? does this require testing on animals? sometimes, unfortunately. should we work to find a way around it? yes, for sure.

  and on the other hand:

  • just because we have evolved larger brains and consciousness, does not give us the right to let natural selection run it's course. nature is cold and cruel. we don't have to be cold and cruel. we should fight natural selection. (ironically, in order to fight natural selection in our species, we may have to test medicine on other species. but ultimately, we truly fight it when we can use alternate methods.).
  • as Tal brought out, it is the height of h.sapien delusion to think that we are special, and have the birth right to subject other animals to a torture and death in the name of progress.
  • as chrissy has brought out, there are some alternatives to testing on animals, which some researchers have pioneered. this should be applauded and rewarded, as it has been. and i think that with the development of disciplines such as nanotechnology, bio-molecular engineering (evo-devo) and genetics, the animal/mammal part of the equation should become less and less.

  there has been much abuse of animals at the hands of humans, in multiple ways, for tens of thousands of years. but that really is spilled milk. it's time to contribute to technologies that circumvent vivisection at all costs. however, we cannot forget either, that we are not truly humane at all, and probably never will be. if one eats veggies, or cows, washes their floor, slaps mosquitoes or drives on a highway in the summer time, you are killing, and sometimes torturing, other living things. so don't just draw the philosophical line with mammals. and yet, we have to still try to be as humane as possible, while going about our lives and research efficiently, don't we? it's a rather precarious balance to strike. but i am optimistic for new technologies that will allow us to ease our consciences.
• 

  talesin

  SNG

  No problems here! Debate is one thing, discussion another. I guess you didn't get what I was saying. I enjoyed hearing your way of looking at it, and endless debating of every little thing we say till we exhaust the issue is just that ... exhausting! :)

  U/D

  How tall are you? Ah, I didn't know they piled it that high.

  tal