No Christmas

by tattoogrl333 15 Replies latest jw friends

tattoogrl333

Jesus was not born on December 25?????? What is the reasoning behind this belief?
Pubsinger

Hi Tattoogrl
Am i right in thinking you are a new Witness? I read one of your posts somewhere else where you said you'd only been to 4 meetings.
If you are wondering why Christians celebrate Christmas on Dec 25 when it's not Jesus' birthday, there's a fewc things to consider.
Firstly, perspective is important in all these things.
You will not find a commited Christian anywhere who believes that Jesus was born on Dec 25. Contrary to the Society, they are not that ignorant.
No Christian tries to support Dec 25 as his date of birth. It is simply the date chosen to commemorate his birth, about 1700years ago by Constantine.
This is where your perspective comes into it. JWs believe that because the date was the old festival of Saturnalia, then all Christmas celebrations are of Pagan origin and you are still worshipping the rebirth of the sun.
The Christian perspective is that Constantine (whatever you may think of him) at one fell swoop,abolished a pagan festival and turned peoples attention from sun worship to focusing on the fact that Jesus Christ the Son of God was born in to the world to ultimately die for mankind. He never said it was a historical fact that Jesus was born on Dec 25 he just set that date aside for people to memorialise Jesus birth.Not a bad thing in my view.
Pubsinger.
tattoogrl333

Oh I was always led to believe that he was born on that day. Because of that I feel weird now. Oh well I never was one much for holidays anyways never liked santa and agreed with the other reindeer when they though rudolph was a freak. And don't get me started on Easter a big huge bunny hopping around hiding eggs. Come on. Never got presents anyways. Oh well I feel better now that I've let that out.
Pubsinger

Yeah Tits sorry Tats(!) but none of the things that you mention Bunnies, reindeer, trees, eggs, present giving and all that have anything to do with Christianity. No Christians are under that illusion or try to pretend that they are.
If you thought that Jesus was born on Dec 25 before you became a Witness ask yourself whether you considered yourself to be a Christian then? If you didn't then you can't really judge how other Christians view Christmas. Trust me, its not how the Elders tellyou they view it.
PS. How much do I have to pay to see them?!
tattoogrl333

Pub,
I never read the bible before I met a JW. Family thought religion was for the weak a big joke. I remember my dad lashing out at me cuz he found a bible in my room. My friend who was catholic dropped it out of her school bag. So yeah I thought Jesus was born on the 25 and no I didn't think I was a good christian. In fact who knows It's all almost too weird taking in so much stuff and still feeling no connection to God just a headache from so much info.
Pubsinger

Listen.
Your last sentence sent shivers down my spine Tattoogrl.
"Its all too weird...all that info and NOT FEELING ANY CONNECTION TO GOD"
I don't think that you realise, but that is the whole point of Christianity. You've probably not heard this before but its a well known saying amongst Christians, (but I'm willing to bet most JWs have never heard this before either) "Christianity is not a Religion, it is a RELATIONSHIP.
Tattoo,it doesn't matter what you learn or understand. It's connecting with God that is important. Check John 17 v 3 in any transalation but NWT (JW Bible). Its not "taking in knowledge" or info, which is what you have been doing, but coming to KNOW God that matters.
If you are wanting to feel a connection with God and PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE be assured that that is the way to go, then approach some other Christian Church and tell them what you are doing and what you are searching for. They will help you. At the very least do this at the same time that you are studying with the JWs,you will be able to see who leads you to connect with God.
Tattoo, think about this.
I am away for three days now till Thursday. I'll look you up when I get back. Where are you by the way?
In the meantime any Christian Ex-JW who realises the significance of what Tattoo has said in her post, could you follow up what I'm trying to say.
Cheers. C U in a few days
Pubsinger.
Abaddon

"... It's all almost too weird taking in so much stuff and still feeling no connection to God just a headache from so much info."
I agree with Pubsinger. That sentence is spooky. What you have to realise is that what you are being told about actually won't give you any connection with god. It's a cult. Check out this URL;
http://www.freedomofmind.com/
The Jehovah's Witnesses are a cult. They are very subtle and clever, but they are a cult, as they conform to reckognised descriptions of a cult. I have taken the below list from the above website. Go through it and see what ones you can tick for JW's. Let us know which ones you've identified, and I'm sure we can point out a few you've missed.
I. Behavior Control
1. Regulation of individual’s physical reality
a. Where, how and with whom the member lives and associates with
b. What clothes, colors, hairstyles the person wears
c. What food the person eats, drinks, adopts, and rejects
d. How much sleep the person is able to have
e. Financial dependence
f. Little or no time spent on leisure, entertainment, vacations
2. Major time commitment required for indoctrination sessions and group rituals
3. Need to ask permission for major decisions
4. Need to report thoughts, feelings and activities to superiors
5. Rewards and punishments (behavior modification techniques- positive and negative).
5. Individualism discouraged; group think prevails
6. Rigid rules and regulations
7. Need for obedience and dependency
II. Information Control
1. Use of deception
a. Deliberately holding back information
b. Distorting information to make it acceptable
c. Outright lying
2. Access to non-cult sources of information minimized or discouraged
a. Books, articles, newspapers, magazines, TV, radio
b. Critical information
c. Former members
d. Keep members so busy they don’t have time to think
3. Compartmentalization of information; Outsider vs. Insider doctrines
a. Information is not freely accessible
b. Information varies at different levels and missions within pyramid
c. Leadership decides who "needs to know" what
4. Spying on other members is encouraged
a. Pairing up with "buddy" system to monitor and control
b. Reporting deviant thoughts, feelings, and actions to leadership
5. Extensive use of cult generated information and propaganda
a. Newsletters, magazines, journals, audio tapes, videotapes, etc.
b. Misquotations, statements taken out of context from non-cult sources
6. Unethical use of confession
a. Information about "sins" used to abolish identity boundaries
b. Past "sins" used to manipulate and control; no forgiveness or absolution
III. Thought Control
1. Need to internalize the group’s doctrine as "Truth"
a. Map = Reality
b. Black and White thinking
c. Good vs. evil
d. Us vs. them (inside vs. outside)
2. Adopt "loaded" language (characterized by "thought-terminating clichés"). Words are the tools we use to think with. These "special" words constrict rather than expand understanding. They function to reduce complexities of experience into trite, platitudinous "buzz words".
3. Only "good" and "proper" thoughts are encouraged.
4. Thought-stopping techniques (to shut down "reality testing" by stopping "negative" thoughts and allowing only "good" thoughts); rejection of rational analysis, critical thinking, constructive criticism.
a. Denial, rationalization, justification, wishful thinking
b. Chanting
c. Meditating
d. Praying
e. Speaking in "tongues"
f. Singing or humming
5. No critical questions about leader, doctrine, or policy seen as legitimate
6. No alternative belief systems viewed as legitimate, good, or useful
IV. Emotional Control
1. Manipulate and narrow the range of a person’s feelings.
2. Make the person feel like if there are ever any problems it is always their fault, never the leader’s or the group’s.
3. Excessive use of guilt
a. Identity guilt
1. Who you are (not living up to your potential)
2. Your family
3. Your past
4. Your affiliations
5. Your thoughts, feelings, actions
b. Social guilt
c. Historical guilt
4. Excessive use of fear
a. Fear of thinking independently
b. Fear of the "outside" world
c. Fear of enemies
d. Fear of losing one’s "salvation"
e. Fear of leaving the group or being shunned by group
f. Fear of disapproval
5. Extremes of emotional highs and lows.
6. Ritual and often public confession of "sins".
7. Phobia indoctrination : programming of irrational fears of ever leaving the group or even questioning the leader’s authority. The person under mind control cannot visualize a positive, fulfilled future without being in the group.
a. No happiness or fulfillment "outside"of the group
b. Terrible consequences will take place if you leave: "hell"; "demon possession"; "incurable diseases"; "accidents"; "suicide"; "insanity"; "10,000 reincarnations"; etc.
c. Shunning of leave takers. Fear of being rejected by friends, peers, and family.
d. Never a legitimate reason to leave. From the group’s perspective, people who leave are: "weak"; "undisciplined"; "unspiritual"; "worldly"; "brainwashed by family, counselors"; seduced by money, sex, rock and roll.
If you really want to see what they are like, mention you're researching JW's on the Internet... they will act like you are doing something very bad and dangerous. If you mention people are trying to disuade you from getting involved, they will make out that Satan is testing you.
Please, save your life. Save yourself the grief this damned cult has given most of us here. Choose life. Choose NOT being a JW. SOrry if I sound over-the-top, but they are dangerous.
Tina

((((((((abaddon)))))))))--editing here lol
Excellent1 excelent! (as always :>)luv,T
Tatgirl please take Abaddon's post to heart and review it critically. The conforming process is very subtle,after prolonged exposure to jw's,one can be in this process and never realize it. regards,Tina
JanH

tattoogrl333,
Nobody knows when Jesus lived, or indeed if he has lived at all (most likely there was a man called Jesus, but we can't be sure). Even if you take the Bible at face value, neither the date nor the year can be known, not for his birth and not for his death.
It is possible to give some good arguments against the idea he was born in December. It is also possibly to make a sort-of argument, based on a combination if different texts, that the right date was some time around October 1. Most likely, Christianity took the birth date of Mithra -- Mithraism was a contemporary mystery cult with many similarities with Christianity -- and applied it to Jesus. It also seems likely that Christianity took a number of other rituals from Mithraism, for example the Eucharist aka the Lord's supper. The whole idea of a saviour God/hero dying and being resurrected in the spring is an old fertility theme, known from e.g. the Osiris myths, which were on the rise around the time when Christianity developed.
There are practically no ideas in religion that are not recycled from older belief systems.
- Jan
--
Faith, n. Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel. [Ambrose Bierce, The Devil´s Dictionary, 1911]
ozziepost

You've probably not heard this before but its a well known saying amongst Christians, (but I'm willing to bet most JWs have never heard this before either) "Christianity is not a Religion, it is a RELATIONSHIP.
Thanks for bringing this out, Pubsinger. we know why they don't speak about it, don't we? See my post "Once upon a time..." just down the page.
Cheers,
Ozzie
"You can know the law by heart, without knowing the heart of it"
Philip Yancey What's So Amazing About Grace?

No Christmas

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