Double Standard?

by Bendrr 28 Replies latest social current

Bendrr

JWD is the premier ex-JW site without a doubt. Simon, you've done one hell of a job in creating and maintaining a meeting and learning place for current, exiting, and long-gone dubs. For that I salute you.
We can come here and speak our minds about the WTS. Their lies about dates, their lies about changing doctrine, their doctrines that destroy the lives of innocent children, their doctrines that tear apart families. They teach that we're all going to die horrible deaths at Armageddon because we post here and celebrate Christmas, and they rejoice at the prospect of so many unrighteous dying and they teach their children to rejoice as well at our deaths.
There are even other religions that come under merciless scrutiny here. The mormons, Scientology, the Catholic Church, if they screw up they get skewered. That's as it should be, since some lurker may need to know the truth.
So why is it that Islam is "hands-off"? Why does Islam get a pass, why is it treated as beyond reproach? Jehovah's Witnesses didn't fly hijacked airliners into skyscrapers. Suicide bombers in Israel aren't Baptists. Catholics didn't pull off the first bombing of the World Trade Center. Scientologists didn't bomb Madrid train stations. Pentecostals didn't attempt a massive chemical bombing in Jordan. Moonies didn't suicide-bomb the USS Cole. Buddhists didn't bomb the embassies in Kenya and Tanzania.
Be fair! Islam is just as legitimate a target for bashing as any other religion that has radical fundamentalists willing to murder in the name of their god.
Most religions anticipate a coming theocracy, and you and I don't want any part of most of their ideas of "paradise", but they don't go about trying to create theocracy through bombings and the wholesale murder of "infidels". True, some try to pass silly laws, and that's why we have courts and separation of church and state to keep the balance, but that's about as far as they go. You see, they don't encourage their flocks to kill as many infidels as possible so as to get 70 virgins in Heaven.
Yes, I realize that I'm extremely prejudiced against Islam as a result of a small percentage of Muslims. No arguments there. Given that there are an estimated one billion plus Muslims in the world, what would you define as a "small percentage"? How small can we make that percentage before us "infidels" feel that there isn't a clear and present danger?
Therefore I request that you, Simon, a fellow ex-Jehovah's Witness "brother" of mine, leave your own personal politics behind and allow critical discussion of Islam just the same as critical discussion of the Jehovah's Witnesses is allowed.
Yours in apostacy,
Mike, no longer enslaved by any religion whatsoever since 1992.
Simon

There is a huge difference.
You are slamming a whole religion and culture and not criticising at all. Making comments like "Nuke Mecca" is not criticism - it's bigotry.
Yes, we allow criticism of other groups but it's criticism of their beliefs and why we think they are wrong. I haven't seen you criticising Islam and it's beliefs. Maybe you don't even know what they are?
Catholics didn't bomb the world trade centre but the ones who did were Mulsim, but then the ones who bombed the UK for 30+ years were Catholics. Does this mean we can express hatred of all Catholics and that they all deserve to die? Of course not.
Hate the act and the people carrying out the act, not the other people who just happen to share a similar creed, belief or skin color.

Yes, I realize that I'm extremely prejudiced against Islam as a result of a small percentage of Muslims. No arguments there. Given that there are an estimated one billion plus Muslims in the world, what would you define as a "small percentage"? How small can we make that percentage before us "infidels" feel that there isn't a clear and present danger?
I think that says it all.
Englishman

Just some info for those who are interested.
A Daily Telegraph survey revealed that around 77% of British Muslims condemned the bombings. However, it also said that only 18% of Brit-born male Muslims felt in their heart as though they were British citizens. Conversely, over 50% of female Muslims felt as though they were truly British.
I'm also told (by several Londoners) that London cabbies are refusing to pick up young men of Asian appearance and just driving by. In turn, the young men are deliberately riding on tube trains carrying back-packs so as to upset train passengers, who have, on several occasions, bodily hoisted them off the train.
It does all point to the fact that it is mainly a section young disillusioned males who are the real problem. These are easy meat for terrorist leaders.
Personally, I don't like it when folk paint a group with such a broad brush so that everyone in a faith is included in the general condemnation. Here is WSM, the majority of social and criminal problems are caused by young white males. The Muslim community here are generally law-abiding and upstanding citizens, although they do mix in with the local people so I guess they're not fundamentalist.
Englishman.
Frog

You are slamming a whole religion and culture and not criticising at all. Making comments like "Nuke Mecca" is not criticism - it's bigotry.

It is a relief to know that at least the moderators have a balanced and clear view on matters of a delicate and complex nature. If only Simon, you could moderate the thought processes of the narrow minded.
EvilForce

On most of the threads that start out on Islamic musings tend to denegrate into hate filled rants against an entire people. This is bigotry. Some of the statements made on similar threads have been "I know what Terrorists look like and they look like all those Osama lookin dudes", "Islam teaches hate", "they all hate us", "f**k em, nuke em", "sh**heads for allah".
So if you want to bash and entire class of people just to bash them...well admit it for what it is. Simplistic rants to idle complex issues.
I don't see people discussing the ETA Basque seperatists as denegrating into a free for all bashing all Spainards or Catholics. I haven't seen statements like "All Catholics hate Britons" for the IRA discussions. But most all of the Islam threads turn into whole race bashing statements. Perhaps it's just easier to lump them all together. That way we don't have to delve into the ins and outs of Islam and why it's ideology allows for such horrific things to happen.

This hysteria reminds me of what the Japanese must have endured in WWII. Here's a "fun" quote: General John L. DeWitt was responsible for the defense of the West Coast whose famous quotes include: “A Jap’s a Jap. It makes no difference whether he is an American citizen or not. I could post hundreds of similar quotes but I think you get my drift. In 30 years will we look back at this time and see what we were saying about Muslims and having Gitmo as an internment camp and be similarly embarrased? When I was in high school I remember learning about the Japanese internment camps and thinking to myself "That could never happen now". I was wrong.

Very similar to the rounding up of Muslim and Arab males after the 9/11 attacks, within 48 hours after Pearl Harbor, 1,291 Japanese American men were arrested, most of whom would be incarcerated for the entire four-year duration of the war and separated from their families and loved ones.

But since none of the 9/11 hijackers were American yet Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols were...perhaps instead of rounding up Muslims we ought to round up radical right wing political groups instead?

"If you want to understand what motivates suicide bombers, watch the recent movie "Downfall." Based on eyewitness accounts, it chronicles the final days inside Hitler's bunker. In a particularly harrowing scene, Joseph Goebbels and his wife are given the opportunity to have their six young children flee to safety. But Magda Goebbels refuses and instead drugs the kids to sleep. Then she inserts a cyanide capsule into each child's mouth and presses the jaws until the capsule breaks. When explaining why she won't allow her kids to escape, Mrs. Goebbels explains, "I can't bear to think of them growing up in a world without national socialism." This is the power of ideology. Magda Goebbels had embraced a horrific world view that made her believe that murdering her children was a noble act." - Fareed Z. Newsweek Magazine Aug. 1st 2005

Another interesting study to check out: http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?PageID=811 It has a chart, by nation, showing what popular thought is regarding which is the most "violent" religion. Of course Britons thought Isalm. Many middle eastern countries felt it was the Jews. In Turkey it was the Christians. Is it truly in the eye of the beholder? Let the reader use discernment.

But I digress. If there could be civil, enlightened debate on the subject I'm all for it but sadly I haven't seen a whole lot of that regarding Muslims on JWD. It seems to have boiled down to personal attacks, racist slurs, and name calling by both posters and mods alike.
Gopher

There seems to be a broad range of Islamic practice, ranging from radicalism to moderate. Also, there doesn't seem to be a central authority structure to focus on. Different factions of Islam can issue fatwas or orders that only affect a narrow band of Islamic people, such as the anti-terrorism fatwa from American Islamic leaders that was issued last week.
Whereas groups with which we are more familiar, such as Catholics, JW's, Mormons and even Scientologists have a central controlling body which can bear responsibility for an international group of worshippers, there is no such central authority in the Islamic faith. (Correct me if I am wrong.)
Also, the vast majority of posters here are from Western lands and therefore are more familiar with the pros and cons of Western religious groups. I admit I really don't know much about the Koran, and whether the passages about "striking terror into the hearts of enemies" really are meant to encourage terrorism by serious followers of Mohammed or not. The Bible also has phrases that speak of God's enemies being stricken by fear when he judges mankind -- so should Christians take that to mean that they should take God's wrath out on those viewed as unchristian in our current life? Many have, during times like the Crusades.
All in all, it seems more realistic to focus on the actions taken by people or identifiable groups (such as Al-Quaeda) who can be held responsible, then an entire amorphous "Islamic" group.
stillajwexelder

So why is it that Islam is "hands-off"?
WE do not want Fatwa declared against us! LOL
Bendrr

There is a huge difference.
You are slamming a whole religion and culture and not criticising at all. Making comments like "Nuke Mecca" is not criticism - it's bigotry.
All right then, I can see that that comment really bothered you so for the purposes of this discussion I'll retract it and I apologize.
And yes, I'm slamming an entire religion if you want to call it that. I call it being extremely critical. The belief that Allah rewards Muslims suicide bombers is worthy of the name I gave the extremists. Evilforce quoted it in this thread, "S**theads for Allah". Their fanatical hatred of the Jews, one that only Hitler could have shared. Their treatment of women.Look. How would you like it if the Church of England had its own police force poking its nose into your private life? If you led a small group of another faith, they could throw you in jail. Unthinkable in our countries, but guess what? It happens in Islamic nations such as Saudi Arabia and Iran. Remember, Iran's full name is Islamic Republic of Iran.
Catholics didn't bomb the world trade centre but the ones who did were Mulsim, but then the ones who bombed the UK for 30+ years were Catholics. Does this mean we can express hatred of all Catholics and that they all deserve to die? Of course not.
Hate the act and the people carrying out the act, not the other people who just happen to share a similar creed, belief or skin color.
How many Catholics are there and what is the percentage of extremists? Versus, how many Muslims and what is the percentage of radical Muslims? It's just not a fair comparison to begin with.
I don't hate all Muslims, but I have distrust for Muslims at this point for the very real fact that we don't know which ones in our home countries are the fanatics planning mass murder. I'm also not calling for the wholesale slaughter of all Muslims and skin color has nothing to do with it. The terrorists want to kill us because they're Muslim and we're not. Far as I'm concerned the hatred over religion starts with them, not me or you.
I hate the act and I hate the people carrying out the act, just as you do. I also hate those who cheered and dance in the streets celebrating them. That makes them suspect as far as I'm concerned. I hate all those who supported and funded them. I don't hate, but also don't exactly love or entirely trust, those who don't make a real effort to root out elements in their own midst who may go out and do the same thing. For example, Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia is only slightly more trustworthy than Iran. Or how about Pakistan? Their military and police are corrupted throughout by "sympathizers" of the extremists like Al Qaeda and Bin Laden is likely hiding out right there across the Pakistani border if he isn't in Iran. Syria is basically waging war with the Coalition via terrorists and suicide bombers.
My point is, at this point in time we are at war with Islamic terrorism. Let's call it what it is, Islamic terrorism. The mistrust and prejudice, though I call it postjudice, are fairly well justified because we don't see the enemy extremists until it's usually too late.
Mike.
talesin

Sorry, Bendrr, but your bigotry just doesn't fly here!
But I know that YOU feel safe, cause you are always 'packing some heat', ,, so what's your beef? Didn't meet up with any punks at the 7/11 lately to take out your aggression on?
tal
EvilForce

Mike / Bendrr
You are throwing Islam into government endorsed actions. Because the UNITED STATES, BRITIAN, and other western countries supported, endorsed, and encouraged the middle east's governments SUPPRESSION of human rights MILITANT ISLAM flourished. While the government was running roughshod over their people, those shahs, emirs, and kings were looking the other way at the militant religious groups that were blaming the west for their problems. These despotic govt. like Saudi and Syria and Egypt (all of which were highly supported by conservatives US presidents) were more than happy to have the looking glass of these groups focused on the USA. The USA took the stance of "As long as the oil is flowing we won't mettle".

NONE of the 9/11 bombers were American citizens. The recent London bombers were not first generation Muslims! No those bomber's parents came to the west and opened grocery stores, fish and chip shops, and Muslim book stores. "Like all ideologies, radical Islam is a phenomenon of the educated class. From Muhammad Atta to Mohammed Sidique Khan, almost all suicide bombers have been men who read and write. Extremist ideology is a leisure-time pursuit. Forty years ago they would have embraced Leninist revolutionary dogma, with Che Guevara as the bin Laden of his day. Today, for Muslims, it is a violent interpretation of Islamic fundamentalism." - Fareed Zacharis

You seem to dismiss progressive, liberal Islamic nations such as Indonesia and Turkey (a NATO member). You see, the Muslims in these countries have the ability to demonstrate, vote, scream, yell, holler and all the other things associated with democracy. They aren't so repressed that the only outlet for their rage is radical fundamentalist Islam. So your arugement about them hating us isn't really true at all. They are angry. They are in a pressure cooker whereby they do not have the ability to get angry at their government since they will be brutalized. Educated Muslims angry for being repressed in these middle eastern countries.

How about those London slackers that bombed the trains? Fanaticism.

While it would be easier to simply group all those horrible Muslims into one group the truth is much more complex than that Bendrr. You said " Far as I'm concerned the hatred over religion starts with them, not me or you." Well you are wrong...you are just as guilty for bigotry as they are against the west. Just calling it as I see it.

Resepctfully,
EvilForce

Double Standard?

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