So how do you explain this.... (page 10)

Legolas

So Rem and the rest of you brains surgeons out there can believe what you want , there is nothing that would convince me I'm wrong on this one .

I agree 100%!!!!!!

loosie

Rem, if Legolas said she would read one your books are you going read one of hers?

Seeing that I've watched many of the same types of TV programming that has aided in convincing Legolas that ghost are real, there's probably not much I haven't seen from that side of the fence. Like I said before, I used to be a believer, so if there is something new to share, I'm more than happy to see it. Be warned, though, there is a high probability that I've already seen what anyone has to offer.

rem

MerryMagdalene

I'm curious...

For future reference: what is it that makes something an "extraordinary claim," requiring "extraordinary evidence"? What is the criteria and who determines it?

It seems to me that what seems extraordinary to one may be ordinary to someone else, depending on their frame of reference. Is that part of the difficulty we have in communicating with each other?

And does a "supernatural claim" require "supernatural proof"? If so, what would be acceptable in those terms?

(btw I don't happen to believe in the "supernatural" because I believe everything we can experience is natural, including those mysterious, intangible things we don't yet fully understand but everyone wants to categorize anyway.)

I'm looking forward to reading some of the books that have been mentioned.

~Merry (who was "astral-traveling" long before she ever heard of such a thing)

rem

Sagan explains the concept of "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" quite well in Demon Haunted World.

Basically what it comes down to is a claim is extraordinary if it requires the rewriting of many well tested scientific theories. For example, many paranormal claims require that forces do not deteriorate over distance. This goes against known physics and is an extraordinary claim. You could say this is educated adult common sense.

If I were to claim that I got a speeding ticket today, that would not be an extraordinary claim. If I claimed that I got a speeding ticket in my invisible stealth fighter, that would be extraordinary and would require some extraordinary evidence. Part of critical thinking is to be able to tune your baloney detection skills and better determine what is an ordinary claim and what is extraordinary. It does take some knowledge of science and logic (the ability to see logical fallacies) and such to determine with accuracy what is an extraordinary claim and what isn't.

For example, a child would have a different concept of what is extraordinary than would an adult (hopefully). The same is true when one learns more about science and critical thinking.

If a claim is not falsifiable, then it is not even worthy of discussion. This means that any claim worthy of discussion will have a naturalistic explanation because only those can be tested. For example, I can claim that I have an invisible elf living inside my big toe, but you cannot disprove this claim. Since the claim is not falsifiable, there is no reason to take it seriously. Anybody can make such claims without evidence and there is nothing that can be done to disprove them. Ultimately such claims do not end up teaching us anything useful about our universe. If it was useful, then it could be tested and falsified.

That is why you don't see the world changed by paranormal claims... there are no laws against psychics gambling, psychics are of no aid in finding missing people (above chance), etc. etc. whereas innumerable scientific advances have touched almost every facet of our lives, even down to this message board we are using today (notice we are not using ESP to communicate).

rem

Legolas

Rem give me the jist of why people float. I want some insight on this book before I spend hard earned money on this book!

MerryMagdalene

a claim is extraordinary if it requires the rewriting of many well tested scientific theories.

Thanks for bothering to explain that, Rem. I appreciate it. And I am looking forward to doing some more reading. Demon Haunted World sounds like an interesting book.

~Merry (a curious girl exploring a curious world)

rem

First I need to know what type of floating you are talking about. There are several types. Is it the David Blaine type of floating? Monks floating? Floating in bed at night? What specifically have you seen floating with your own eyes, or are you relying on second/third-hand information?

Understanding the floating phenomenon requires more than a knowlege of the mechanics, but also of they psychology involved.

rem

loosie

high probability that I've already seen what anyone has to offer

Sounds like what someone knocking on doors offering magazines would say if the homeowner asked them to read some guideposts magazines.

Now just because a claim cannot be tested doesn't make it not true. Lots of people claim there is a God. This cannot be tested scientifically. But that does not mean that God doesn't exist.

Now when I was going thru PTSD I heard voices. (you would too if you had been through what I had been though). Now no scientific test can show that I heard voices. But none the less I heard them.

freedom96

I think at this point we should all agree to disagree.

I don't need someone else telling me what I did or didn't see. It will be interesting to look at those books, but if they even start to tell me that it is all in my head, then the book will shut.

So how do you explain this....

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