A Discussion With An "Anointed" Elder

by Defender 15 Replies latest jw friends

  • Defender
    Defender

    An elder from my congregation visits my wife and I whenever he is in the area. It has been a while since his last visit. He used to come in uninvited and unexpected. I did not mind, but to the contrary, I used to invite him in for coffee and snacks and I generally extended my invitation to him to come in and visit anytime. He used to do that and sometimes bring with him another elder or sometimes a couple of sisters. Though my doubts concerning the WTS had developed a year ago, but we have recently moved in from a distant city and I did not want my wife to feel too lonely. She still attends and she feels very uncomfortable with my situation.

    This elder is of the “anointed”, the only one in the congregation. He is in his mid fifties, soft-spoken and quite gentle. He is the only elder, from among half a dozen that makes an effort to call us or visit to enquire. However, he personally admitted that he had participated in several judicial committees in the early eighties that had disfellowshipped a number of “apostates”.

    He had noticed that I am missing all meetings and that I surely must have some issues. So, on his last visit, he had brought along “worldly” quotes praising the New World translation of the Society in response to some questions I had asked him in his previous visit. Our discussion drifted to some of my concerns. One issue we tackled was the idea that only JWs will be saved.

    The elder and I had come from Catholic backgrounds and his argument was a JW will stand a better chance of survival than a Catholic. I asked him why does he think that. He responded by saying that JWs have more accurate knowledge than Catholics. I asked him if JWs had always had accurate knowledge. He said: “ No! The Society, over time, had acquired more accurate understanding and had discarded false doctrines.”

    So I asked him if that means that JWs living today, that have more accurate knowledge, will have more chances of survival than JWs that had lived years ago and had passed away having believed false doctrines? Furthermore, will JWs in the future have more chances of survival than those living today, since they will definitely be having yet more accurate understanding?

    Jehovah’s witnesses main preaching thrust is that they have a monopoly on divine “Knowledge”. Their angle is that since they could successfully point to a number of flawed doctrines that the Catholic and other Christian Churches maintain, then by extension, they possessed unique “knowledge”. This “knowledge”, they continually assert, enabled them to determine that we are living in the last days, that Jesus had arrived invisibly, that he had inspected all his followers and had appointed them as his only faithful slave, and that only JWs are going to be saved.

    According to the WTS doctrine, “Knowledge” leads to eternal life. Therefore, it is salvation based on “knowledge”. However, the Society freely admits that their “knowledge” had come in gradually and continues to be refined.

    If “Knowledge” is measured between zero and 100, then at what level one can safely say that that is enough for salvation. If we assumed that Catholics had 25 percent, then Russell came in at 35 percent, Rutherford at 40, Knorr at 45, Franz at 50, and JWs today stand at say 55. Who can say what is the passing grade of salvation? Is it 60, 70, 80 or 100?

    This is the doctrinal flaw of salvation based on “Knowledge”. Whereas, Jesus’ ransom sacrifice offered salvation based on “Faith”. Acquiring and refining more accurate knowledge comes in AFTER having exercised faith in Jesus. It is not a requirement to have BEFORE. This is why there are numerous experiences in the NT where individuals were baptized immediately after hearing a single public talk. Not only that, but Holy Spirit descended upon them in a sure sign of divine approval, some even before being baptized. These individuals did not have to come to any level of accurate knowledge before attaining this divine approval. Their journey to pastures of more accurate knowledge started afterwards. Their being eligible for salvation was decided on the moment that they, in their heart, exercised faith. Their next step was to continue to live in this faith and show positive fruitage. In the meantime, as promised by Jesus, the Holy Spirit, the comforter, will continue to teach them all things.

    The Pharisees had more accurate knowledge than the average Jewish layman of the time. That still did not help them. In a way, their knowledge acted as a hindrance and a stumbling block for many of them. What they needed was faith and humility.

    The Society’s contention is that Catholics maintain so many false doctrines that they could not possibly have divine approval. This could also be said to JWs, for they too, held erroneous teachings and doctrines for many years and could very well be doing so today.

    While it is true that Catholics hold and promote flawed teachings, but how do we describe JWs many vacillating doctrines, teachings and expectations? 1799, prophetic interpretations, 1914, 1915, 1918, organization, 1925, 1935, elected elders, vaccination, organ transplant, blood and blood component transfusion, Higher Authorities, 1975, King of the North, The Sheep and the Goats, This Generation and others to name a few.

    The society's counter argument is that it is at least discarding doctrines once they prove to be flawed, the Catholic Church instead, does not do so.

    While this is commendable, but once again, proves that the Society, despites its assertion that they are the only approved slave, continues to hold and promote what later turns out to be false doctrine. If Jesus had come in invisibly as they assert and had appointed them as his sole channel, and since “Knowledge” is the catalyst for salvation, then surely, Jesus would make sure that the Society’s teachings are 100 percent truthful and correct, right from the get go. Billions of lives are at stake.

    Maintaining truthful teaching and dumping flawed ones should be the task of every faithful Christian. But this endeavor, of itself, is not the main arbiter of who gets saved.

    JWs and the Catholics are like two persons who boarded a lifeboat in order to escape from a sinking ship. Thereafter, they started to engage in trying to push each other overboard in self-righteous indignation of who OUGHT to have been saved. All the while their boat has not reached the safety of land yet.

    The elder was not comfortable in our discussion and signs of stress were clearly visible on his face. I too was stressed, but in a different manner. Towards the end of our discussion, he intimated that he had suffered a stroke a while back. I immediately offered to suspend the discussion and apologized if I had put any undue pressure on him.

    He later left and on his way out he turned to me and said that I am putting the Society under too big of a microscope and that other organizations have flaws as well.

    I agreed with him completely.

  • qwerty
    qwerty

    Defender

    Nice post thanks for the effort and time you put in.

    The arrogance of the org is one big thing that got me to think whether I had the Truth or not. I know so many nice people that are just has Christian, if not more so then the Bro's at the KH. Jesus randsom sacrifice will save many more than JW's will ever know.

    The truth is simple, it is not accurate Knowledge but, the acceptance of Jesus as our individual Saviour. Then wanting to live a Godly life. He is the Truth that set's you free.
    (period)/(full stop)

    qwerty

  • somebody
    somebody

    Hi Defender, ( and hello, qwerty)

    It's wonderful that you got the chance to sit down and have a discussion with the anointed elder.

    While I agree that knowledge of God is important, I think it's only gained through Jesus's words in the Bible. I don't believe that it's commanded that we gain knowledge through any organization or group. Just my own opinion here.

    If the elder comes back for a visit and feels well enough to have a discussion again. Ask him to read 1Corinthians 13. It's a short chapter and states that showing love is more important than knowledge or preaching.

    One more comment..I noticed that the Catholics have changed some false doctrines over the years and everytime they do, the watchtower or awakes have articles slamming them for it and saying that they taught false teachings because they are part of satan's organization. The Watchtower even bashed them for publicly appoligizing and asking for forgiveness. Reading all the false teachings/doctrines you mentioned that JWs taught brought to mind the August 1,2001 Watchtower article. It's posted in the Study Articles forum by hippikon. If you have a chance, read it. I was appauled at what I was reading. Even the first sentence.

    Along with querty, I thank you for posting your discussion, Defender.

    peace,
    somebody

  • metatron
    metatron

    "having the truth" - isn't that always what they fall back
    on?

    When did this silly organization suddenly turn into Gnostics?
    Why should "having the truth" make any difference?
    Did the Pharisees, in effect, "have the truth"? what good
    did it do them?

    They will go to any extreme to avoid the goodness and
    faith that the scriptures really emphasize.

    metatron

  • Pathofthorns
    Pathofthorns

    Nice post. Enjoyed the line of reasoning.

    Unfortunately it is usually wasted on people like the elder you spoke with but the mental exercise is always good.

    I've decided to save my breath lately. Talking to people who can't think but only parrot off tired WT cliches is too frustrating.

    Path

  • waiting
    waiting

    Hello Defender,

    Thank you so much for taking the time to put your discussion here - great points. I've had several local jw's present the argument that the WTBTS is the only group to have the Primary Teachings of the Bible correct - therefore, they are the group approved by Jehovah.

    So I asked him if that means that JWs living today, that have more accurate knowledge, will have more chances of survival than JWs that had lived years ago and had passed away having believed false doctrines? Furthermore, will JWs in the future have more chances of survival than those living today, since they will definitely be having yet more accurate understanding?

    That's such a good question! Because the light get "brighter as the end draws near." Does that mean that the brothers in 1914 that thought they would be dead and taken to Heaven (The Rapture), and celebrated holidays, on and on and on - they will not be resurrected because they didn't have The Truth?

    25% 35% 55% 60% - how do jw's know at what percentage of truth their organization is standing? And at what percentage of truth is salvation? If the Nazarennes are sitting at 25% now - would they have the same chance of salvation as the jw's at the time of Russell?

    Then the jw's would say "Oh, no! Faith in Jehovah is the key."
    Then a person says "I have faith in Jehovah"
    jw: "Well, you still must be in God's approved organization."
    person: "Why?"
    jw: "Well, we have to show works worthy of salvation."
    person: "I do good works."
    jw: "Approved good works."
    person: "Approved by who?"
    jw: "Oh, I meant the preaching work of saving people."

    On and on.......

    But, you're absolutely right - they fall back on several things, Faith, Preaching Work, and Knowledge. According to jw's, Faith starts it, - but then the primary shifts to preaching, backed up by taking in knowledge presented by the WTBTS.

    waiting

  • TweetieBird
    TweetieBird

    I enjoyed you post, Defender. I have often times thought the very same thing.

    When you sit down and really start analyzing WT thinking, it becomes very confusing. I think for me, after a while, I just sat back and said, Hmmm, something is just not right. Then I start wondering why others, like my mom and sister, do not see the same things that I do. They believe it hook, line and sinker. Of course, so did I for 30 years.

    "By doubting we come at truth" -Cicero

  • MrMoe
    MrMoe

    Just a side note:

    Time is never wasted on telling the real truth, elder or unbaptized publisher. Many elders become ex-elders.

    Also, excellent line of reasoning, I also agree with your comments and that JW's are alot like Catholics. The religious leaders in Jesus day did have the truth, and what good did it do them?

  • chester
    chester

    Defender,

    Thanks for your very thought provoking post. The information is very much appreciated.

    I too came from a Catholic background.

    Chester

  • philo
    philo

    Met, thanks again. I never even thought about this line of questioning...

    So I asked him if that means that JWs living today, that have more accurate knowledge, will have more chances of survival than JWs that had lived years ago and had passed away having believed false doctrines? Furthermore, will JWs in the future have more chances of survival than those living today, since they will definitely be having yet more accurate understanding?

    ...much less, the doctrinal flaw in salvation by knowledge.

    philo

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