by Englishman 22 Replies latest jw friends
OK, so having demonstrated my complete ignorance, here's a slightly more informed summary.
They were first landed by the British in 1765 long before Argentina became an independent state. Since about 1900 the argies have claimed sovereignty, but the British have told 'em to get notted.
Personally, I have no problem with that. Also, I found nothing about a lease.
Neko, You know exactly where you can put the British navy, don't you?
Seriously, it seems to me that the British have the only valid claim on the islands. Argentina's claims are based on spurious siteings from sailing vessels, and an aquisitivness of being nearby..
philo
A short chronology of the Falklands:
1522, 1592
Argentine versions state that various Spanish and Portuguese seamen, and particularly Esteban Gómez of the Magellan expedition (in 1522) were the first to see the islands without giving concrete verifiable sources except their own, which are most likely revisionistic.According the Encyclopedia Britannica (an American source probably leaning toward the English), the English navigator John Davis on the Desire (1592) may (note emphasis) have been the first person to sight the Falklands.
Given that both sides' claims are much debated and undocumented by the original sources, they should be taken with a grain of salt.
Circa 1600
The Dutchman Sebald de Weerdt makes the first undisputed sighting of the islands.1690
The English captain John Strong heading a British expedition made the first recorded landing in the Falklands, in 1690. The British claim the islands for the crown and named the sound between the two main islands after Viscount Falkland, a British naval official. The name was later applied to the whole island group.1764
French navigator Louis-Antoine de Bougainville founds the islands' first permanent settlement, on East Falkland.
During subsequent years, a French fishery is manned by people from St. Malo (hence "Iles Malouines" from which the Argentine name "Islas Malvinas" is derived).1765
The British are the first to settle in the West Falkland island.1767
The Spanish buy out the French settlement (Port Louis) in the East Falkland island. For Spain, this implies a French recognition of the Spanish rights to the land.1770
A Spanish flotilla arrives at the islands asking the British to leave. When first asked to leave, the British officer in charge of the garrison, a Captain Hunt, replied:
``I have received your letters by the officer, acquainting me that these islands and coasts thereof belong to the King of Spain, your Master. In return I am to acquaint you that the said islands belong to his Brittanic Majesty, My Master, by right of discovery as well as settlement and that the subjects of no other power whatever can have any right to be settled in the said islands without leave from His Brittanic Majesty or taking oaths of allegiance and submitting themselves to His Majesty's Government as subjects of the Crown of Great Britain.''
This is the first documented sign we could find of the conflict between Britain and Spain regarding the Islands.Shortly thereafter, the Spanish revisited with a much superior force ``convincing'' the British garrison to leave on 14th July 1770.
[Source: 'An account of of the last expedition to Port Egmont in the Falkland Islands' , by Bernard Penrose published in the Universal Magazine, April 1775.]
1771
The British outpost on West Falkland is restored after threat of war.1774
The British withdraw from the island (for economic reasons according to British sources). Spain maintains the settlement on East Falkland (which it called Soledad Island) until 1811, when Spain is about to lose control of its colonies in America.1816
Independent Argentina first appears on the historical scene.1820
The Buenos Aires government, which had declared its independence from Spain in 1816, first proclaims its sovereignty over the Falklands.1828
Argentine warlord (Caudillo), and later governor of Buenos Aires Juan Manuel de Rosas sent a governor, Mr. Vernet, together with a garrison and settlers for menial work to the islands. The first recorded Argentine settlement in the islands.1831
The American warship USS Lexington destroys the Argentine settlement on East Falkland in reprisal for the arrest of three U.S. ships that had been hunting seals in the area.1833
Afraid that the Americans seized the islands, the British remember the expedition of the 17th century, re-invade the islands, forcefully depose Vernet and send the Argentines back to the mainland albeit without having to fire a shot.1885
A British community of some 1,800 people on the islands is self-supporting.1892
Colonial status is granted to the Falklands.1933 and on
According to David Rock: ``After the Roca-Runciman treaty [A bilateral trade agreement signed in 1933 between Britain and Argentina, benefiting Britain and exploiting Argentina's natural resources -- Ed.], a profusion of new nationalist writers and factions began to appear. For a time the nationalist movement was largely dominated by historians who sought to fuel the campaign against the British. These historical ``revisionists'' began to reexamine the 19th century and to catalogue Britain's imperialist encroachments: the british invasions of 1806-1807, Britain's role in the foundation of Uruguay in the late 1820s, its seizure of the Falkland Islands in 1833, the blockades under Rosas ... A cult now enveloped the figure of Juan Manuel de Rosas, who was depicted as a symbol of national resistance to foreign dominations [In fact, he was a strong handed dictator who killed countless opponents, benefited greatly from trade with Britain, sized 800,000 acres of estate land for himself only etc. -- Ed]... Propaganda of this kind made a deepening imprint on public opinion and helped sustain nationalist sentiments in the Army...''1964
The islands' position was debated by the UN committee on de-colonization. Argentina based its claim to the Falklands on papal bulls of 1493 modified by the Treaty of Tordesillas (1494), by which Spain and Portugal had divided the New World between themselves; on succession from Spain; on the islands' proximity to South America; and on the need to end a colonial situation. Britain based its claim on its "open, continuous, effective possession, occupation, and administration" of the islands since 1833 and its determination to grant the Falklanders self-determination as recognized in the United Nations Charter. Britain asserted that, far from ending a colonial situation, Argentine rule and control of the lives of the Falklanders against their will would, in fact, create one.1965
The UN General Assembly approved a resolution inviting Britain and Argentina to hold discussions to find a peaceful solution to the dispute. These protracted discussions were still proceeding in February 1982 shortly before the Falkland war started.
Argentina does not call the islands the Falkland Islands but rather calls the Las Islas Malvinas. Many Argentines believe the war was started in order to work up patriotic fervor and divert attention from the increasingly poor economic situation of the times, times that are repeating themselves presently. (The war began at the end of a brutal and bloody rule by a military junta. Some 30,000 or so Argentines "disappeared" over a period of 10 to 12 years in a manner similar to that of Chile under Pinochet.) Interestingly, both England and Argentina recognize all born on the islands as citizens of their respective countries.
CPiolo
Ok you guys you asked for it, here's a brief potted history:
The Falkland Islands are a group of islands in the south Atlantic. The two main islands, East Falkland and West Falkland, lie 300 miles [480 km] east of the Argentina coast. About 200 smaller islands form a total land area of approximately 4,700 square miles (12,200 square km). The capital and only town is (Port) Stanley.
The government of the Falkland Islands administers the British dependent territories of South Georgia, the South Sandwich Islands, and the Shag and Clerke rocks, lying from 700 to 2,000 miles (1,100 to 3,200 km) to the east and southeast of the Falklands. The total population of the islands in 1991 was estimated at 2100.
Argentina has claimed the islands since the early 1900's. Britain had occupied and administered the islands since 1833 and had consistently rejected Argentina's claims.
The Falklands War, chronicled below, started after Argentina invaded and took control of the islands in April 1982.
During the war, the British captured about 10,000 Argentine prisoners, all of whom were released afterwards. Argentina sustained 655 men killed, while Britain lost 236. Argentina's ignominious defeat severely discredited the military government and led to the restoration of civilian rule in Argentina in 1983.
Chronicle of the Falkland islands
1522, 1592
Argentine versions state that various Spanish and Portuguese seamen, and particularly Esteban Gómez of the Magellan expedition (in 1522) were the first to see the islands without giving concrete verifiable sources except their own, which are most likely revisionistic.
According the Encyclopedia Britannica (an American source probably leaning toward the English), the English navigator John Davis on the Desire (1592) may (note emphasis) have been the first person to sight the Falklands.
Given that both sides' claims are much debated and undocumented by the original sources, they should be taken with a grain of salt.
Circa 1600
The Dutchman Sebald de Weerdt makes the first undisputed sighting of the islands.
1690
The English captain John Strong heading a British expedition made the first recorded landing in the Falklands, in 1690. The British claim the islands for the crown and named the sound between the two main islands after Viscount Falkland, a British naval official. The name was later applied to the whole island group.
1764
French navigator Louis-Antoine de Bougainville founds the islands' first permanent settlement, on East Falkland.
During subsequent years, a French fishery is manned by people from St. Malo (hence "Iles Malouines" from which the Argentine name "Islas Malvinas" is derived).
1765
The British are the first to settle in the West Falkland island.
1767
The Spanish buy out the French settlement (Port Louis) in the East Falkland island. For Spain, this implies a French recognition of the Spanish rights to the land.
1770
A Spanish flotilla arrives at the islands asking the British to leave. When first asked to leave, the British officer in charge of the garrison, a Captain Hunt, replied:
``I have received your letters by the officer, acquainting me that these islands and coasts thereof belong to the King of Spain, your Master. In return I am to acquaint you that the said islands belong to his Brittanic Majesty, My Master, by right of discovery as well as settlement and that the subjects of no other power whatever can have any right to be settled in the said islands without leave from His Brittanic Majesty or taking oaths of allegiance and submitting themselves to His Majesty's Government as subjects of the Crown of Great Britain.''
This is the first documented sign we could find of the conflict between Britain and Spain regarding the Islands.
Shortly thereafter, the Spanish revisited with a much superior force ``convincing'' the British garrison to leave on 14th July 1770.
[Source: 'An account of of the last expedition to Port Egmont in the Falkland Islands' , by Bernard Penrose published in the Universal Magazine, April 1775.]
1771
The British outpost on West Falkland is restored after threat of war.
1774
The British withdraw from the island (for economic reasons according to British sources). Spain maintains the settlement on East Falkland (which it called Soledad Island) until 1811, when Spain is about to lose control of its colonies in America.
1816
Independent Argentina first appears on the historical scene.
1820
The Buenos Aires government, which had declared its independence from Spain in 1816, first proclaims its sovereignty over the Falklands.
1828
Argentine warlord (Caudillo), and later governor of Buenos Aires Juan Manuel de Rosas sent a governor, Mr. Vernet, together with a garrison and settlers for menial work to the islands. The first recorded Argentine settlement in the islands.
1831
The American warship USS Lexington destroys the Argentine settlement on East Falkland in reprisal for the arrest of three U.S. ships that had been hunting seals in the area.
1833
Afraid that the Americans seized the islands, the British remember the expedition of the 17th century, re-invade the islands, forcefully depose Vernet and send the Argentines back to the mainland albeit without having to fire a shot.
1885
A British community of some 1,800 people on the islands is self-supporting.
1892
Colonial status is granted to the Falklands.
1933 and on
According to David Rock: ``After the Roca-Runciman treaty [A bilateral trade agreement signed in 1933 between Britain and Argentina, benefiting Britain and exploiting Argentina's natural resources -- Ed.], a profusion of new nationalist writers and factions began to appear. For a time the nationalist movement was largely dominated by historians who sought to fuel the campaign against the British. These historical ``revisionists'' began to reexamine the 19th century and to catalogue Britain's imperialist encroachments: the british invasions of 1806-1807, Britain's role in the foundation of Uruguay in the late 1820s, its seizure of the Falkland Islands in 1833, the blockades under Rosas ... A cult now enveloped the figure of Juan Manuel de Rosas, who was depicted as a symbol of national resistance to foreign dominations [In fact, he was a strong handed dictator who killed countless opponents, benefited greatly from trade with Britain, sized 800,000 acres of estate land for himself only etc. -- Ed]... Propaganda of this kind made a deepening imprint on public opinion and helped sustain nationalist sentiments in the Army...''
1964
The islands' position was debated by the UN committee on de-colonization. Argentina based its claim to the Falklands on papal bulls of 1493 modified by the Treaty of Tordesillas (1494), by which Spain and Portugal had divided the New World between themselves; on succession from Spain; on the islands' proximity to South America; and on the need to end a colonial situation. Britain based its claim on its "open, continuous, effective possession, occupation, and administration" of the islands since 1833 and its determination to grant the Falklanders self-determination as recognized in the United Nations Charter. Britain asserted that, far from ending a colonial situation, Argentine rule and control of the lives of the Falklanders against their will would, in fact, create one.
1965
The UN General Assembly approved a resolution inviting Britain and Argentina to hold discussions to find a peaceful solution to the dispute. These protracted discussions were still proceeding in February 1982 shortly before the Falkland war started.
My memories from the 60's
As a primary school student in Buenos Aires, I remember the indoctrination we were subjected to in geography lessons. We were asked to color the Argentina map in which the Falklands (Las Islas Malvinas) were drawn as a part of Argentina in a disproportionate large size east of the Argentine coast. The fact that the islands are 100% populated by English speaking "Kelpers" (about 1800 of them), who preferred to remain under British rule was never mentioned to us. Virtually every child in Argentina, to this very day, is made to believe that the islands are Argentine, the people living on the islands are virtually non-existent (and if they do exist, they are not considered a party in the conflict) and that the so called "imperialistic injustice" ought to be settled. Considering this, it is of no surprise that the conflict becomes harder to resolve with time, especially after the tragic events caused by the 1982 war.
Interestingly: recent British governments had often appeared willing to hand over the islands to Argentina if the islanders would consent to the change of sovereignty. Despite British prodding, this consent never materialized [Rock: p 377-378] As a result, Argentina's several attempts to negotiate sovereignty on the islands with Britain lead nowhere.
Paradoxically, commercial and trade ties have long existed between the islands and the Argentine mainland and these keep expanding with time as long as politics are kept aside.
March 19, 1982
A group of Argentine scrap metal merchants working in the South Georgia island is escorted by some military personnel. Britain calls Argentina to remove the military personnel without response.
March 26, 1982
The Argentine military junta decides to invade the islands.
Background: Argentina is in deep economic trouble; Throughout 1981, inflation sky-rockets to over 600%, GDP is down 11.4%, manufacturing output is down 22.9%, and real wages by 19.2% [Rock: p 375-378]. In addition, Mass disappearances of people in the hands of the military juntas causes significant unrest.
The third dictatorship president since the 1976 coup, General Leopoldo Galtieri launches a military invasion of the islands, code named Operación Rosario. The invasion is planned by the commander of the Navy Admiral Jorge Anaya to be launched on one of the most important national celebrations (The revolution anniversary on May 25th or Independence day on July 9th). Its main purpose is to divert public attention from the distressing internal problems and restore the long lost popularity and prestige of the dictatorship.
Due to the mounting pressures on the government, and mass union demonstrations in late March, the date of the invasion is moved earlier to April 2nd in an act of desperation.
April 2, 1982
The Argentine Navy with thousands of troops lands on the Falklands. A small detachment of Royal Marines on the islands put up a brave but futile resistance before Governor Rex Hunt ordered them to lay down their arms. The marine forces are flown to Montevideo along with the British governor.
April 3, 1982
Argentine troops seize the associated islands of South Georgia and the South Sandwich group (1,000 miles [1,600 km] east of the Falklands) following a short battle in which an Argentine helicopter is forced down and 4 Argentine troops are killed. General Mario Menendez is proclaimed military governor of the islands. As Galtieri has predicted, the move proves to be extremely popular: In Buenos Aires, where the unions had a week earlier demonstrated against the government, there are massive outbursts of solidarity in the streets.
The United Nations Security Council passes Resolution 502 calling for the withdrawal of Argentine troops from the islands and the immediate cessation of hostilities. First Royal air force transport aircraft deploy to Ascension Island.
Late March to early April 1982
Thousands of Argentine conscripts lacking basic training are drafted in a hurry and sent to the islands. Argentina accumulates more than 10,000 troops on the Falklands.
April 8, 1982
The US secretary of State, Alexander Haig, arrives in London to begin shuttle mediation.
April 10, 1982
EEC approves trade sanctions against Argentina. Haig flies to Buenos Aires for talks with the Junta.
April 17, 1982
Haig meets again with the Argentine junta. After a breakdown in the mediation talks, he returns to Washington April 19.
April 23, 1982
British Foreign Office advises British nationals in Argentina to leave.
April 25, 1982
A small British commando force re-takes the Georgia Island. Argentine submarine ``Santa Fe'' attacked and disabled. The commander of the Argentine forces on the island, Alfredo Astiz, signs an unconditional surrender document on board the British HMS Plymouth without firing a single shot violating the military code's article 751:
"A soldier will be condemned to prison for three to five years if, in combat with a foreign enemy, he surrenders without having exhausted his supply of ammunition or without having lost two thirds of the men under his command."
Meanwhile, the main British task force is on its 8,000 miles (13,000 km) way to the war zone via the British-held Ascension Island.
Alfredo Astiz signing the surrender document
on board the British HMS Plymouth
Apr 30, 1982
Alexander Haig's mission is officially terminated. President Ronald Reagan declares US support for Britain and economic sanctions against Argentina. The British war exclusion zone comes into effect.
May 1st, 1982
Harrier and Vulcan British planes attack the Port Stanley (Named ``Puerto Argentino'' by Argentina) airfield. Three Argentine aircraft are shot down.
May 2, 1982
Belaunde Terry, President of Peru, presents a peace proposal to Argentine President Leopoldo Galtieri, who gives a preliminary acceptance with some proposed modifications. Before the Argentine junta ratifies the acceptance, British submarine HMS Conqueror sinks the Argentine cruiser General Belgrano outside the war zone and while sailing away from the islands. Almost 400 crewmen die. At this point the junta rejects the proposal.
May 4, 1982
Argentine air attacks from Super Etendard fighter planes using Exocet air to surface missiles sink the British destroyer HMS Sheffield with twenty men on board. One British Harrier plane is shot down.
May 7, 1982
UN enters peace negotiations.
May 9, 1982
The islands are bombarded from sea and air. Two sea Harriers sink the Argentine trawler Narwal.
May 11, 1982
Argentine supply ship Isla de los Estados is sunk by the British HMS Alacrity.
May 14, 1982
Three Argentine Skyhawks are shot down. Prime Minister Thatcher warns that peaceful settlement may not be possible. Special British forces night raid on Pebble Island; 11 Argentine aircraft destroyed on the ground.
May 18, 1982
A peace proposal presented by the United Nations Secretary General, Perez de Cuellar, is rejected by Britain.
May 21, 1982
The British manage to make an amphibious landing near Port San Carlos, on the northern coast of East Falkland. From this beachhead the British infantry advances southward to capture the settlements of Darwin and Goose Green before turning towards port Stanley.
The British HMS Ardent is sunk by an Argentine air attack. Nine Argentine aircraft shot down.
May 23, 1982
The British HMS Antelope is attacked and sinks after unexploded bomb detonates. Ten Argentine aircraft destroyed.
May 24, 1982
Seven Argentine Aircraft destroyed.
May 25, 1982
HMS Coventry is hit by 3 1000 lb air bombs dropped from Argentine Skyhawks; 19 British dead. The MV Atlantic Conveyor is hit by an Exocet missile and sinks 3 days later, 12 more British dead.
May 28, 1982
More air-raids on Port Stanley.
British 2nd battalion, Parachute Regiment (2-Para), take Darwin and Goose Green in what was arguably the longest and toughest battle of the War. According to the book Goose Green: a battle is fought to be won by Mark Adkin: Though outnumbered (2 to 1: 600 vs. over 1400), low on ammunition, lacking adequate fire support, fighting over open ground, and in daylight against prepared positions, the 2-para emerges as the winner in this first big and critical land battle. British 2-Para Lt. Col. "H" Jones dies in this battle and later awarded a Victoria Cross.
In all, 17 2-Para soldiers, and about 200 Argentine soldiers were killed during this battle. About 1,400 Argentine surrendered and were taken prisoners. According to Argentine sources only 400 of the over 1400 recruits were in condition to fight and the British report as presented by Mark Adkin is way overrated.
May 29, 1982
Warships and Harriers bombard Argentine positions.
May 30, 1982
Shelling continues as British troops advance. The British 45 Commando secures Douglas settlement; 3-Para recaptures Teal Inlet.
May 31, 1982
Mount Kent is taken by British troops. The Falklands' capital of Port Stanley is surrounded.
June 1, 1982
Britain repeats its cease-fire terms.
June 4, 1982
Britain vetoes Panamanian-Spanish cease-fire resolution in the UN Security Council.
June 6, 1982
Versailles summit supports British position on Falklands.
June 8, 1982
An Argentine air attack on British landing craft Sir Galahad and Sir Tristam at Port Pleasant south of Bluff Cove. 50 British die.
June 12, 1982
The British 3-Para mounts an assault on Mount Longdon. The battle on this heavily defended position, which was supposed to last until dawn, proves much tougher and longer than expected. Mount Longdon and its surroundings are finally taken after hand to hand and bayonet fighting with the Argentine troops position by position. The British casualties mount to 23 men, one of which, Sergeant Ian John McKay of 3-Para is later awarded a posthumous Victoria Cross, 47 more British are wounded. The Argentine suffered over 50 dead and many more injured. 6 more British die shortly afterwards.
British 45 Commando takes Two Sisters and 42 Commando takes Mount Harriet with support by the guns of 29th Commando regiment and naval gunfire from a number of Royal Navy frigates.
The 2nd Scots Guards seize Mount Tumbledown in another bloody battle. 9 British and about 40 Argentine die. Another 34 Argentine soldiers surrender and taken prisoners. 32 British are wounded. [Source: Tactics of Modern Warfare by Mark Lloyd].
The cruiser HMS Glamorgan is hit by an Exocet missile as it was bombarding on shore Argentine positions. 13 British die.
June 14, 1982
The large Argentine garrison in Port Stanley is defeated, effectively ending the conflict. The Argentine commander Mario Menendez, agrees to "an unnegotiated cease fire ... with no other condition than the deletion of the word unconditional" from the surrender document which he signs. 9800 Argentine troops put down their weapons.
June 20, 1982
The British re-occupy the South Sandwich Islands. Britain formally declares an end to hostilities, and the two-hundred mile exclusion zone established around the islands during the war is replaced by a Falkland Islands Protection Zone (FIPZ) of 150 miles.
From start to finish, this undeclared war lasted 72 days, claimed nearly 1000 casualties (236 British and 655 Argentine), many of them innocent conscripts that were drafted in a hurry by the Argentine junta. The war had a cost of at least 2 billion dollars. From a political point of view, the war helped the reelection of Margaret Thatcher (who was losing popularity before the conflict started) and brought down Leopoldo Galtieri who was quick to resign afterwards, paving the road to the restoration of democracy in Argentina.
Thats it, copied straight off the net.
Englishman.
..... fanaticism masquerading beneath a cloak of reasoned logic.
But no-one's mentioned Andrew!
Prince Andrew to you yanks.
He was on active duty in the Falklands War piloting a military helicopter. Made him a hero.
Best of the royals. Seems human. Shame about his marriage, but they seem to have a very civilised arrangement.
Cheers,
Ozzie
"You can know the law by heart, without knowing the heart of it"
Philip Yancey, What's So Amazing About Grace?
My impression of the war was that:
The Argentine Airforce were the only bright spots for Argentina. Sadly, most of these heroes died and left a country that needed them.
Other than the airforce it was a pretty embarassing deal for Argentina.
The British proved again that they were not to be underestimated or to be treated with scorn. As stated the dictator did this just to switch attention to the war, but he made a grave error. As for the British, they didn't really want the Islands, and a political deal could have been made over time.
The U.S. was put in a hard spot. We really wanted them to shake hands and make a deal. We had to choose between a country we considered an ally in this hemisphere and England. Considering the English are the only ones ever to have taken our capital and BURNED IT! you might be surprised that we chose England. Over the years and in other situations I imagine a lot of people have been surprised that England has supported us and vice versa. Anyway, we gave them refueling capability on their trip down and sat. recon. which the Argentinans deeply resented if I remember right. It hurt our relations with not only Argentina but other countries in the Americas. They could see where our true loyalties lay.
One good thing for the the US was information on the light fast ships melting temprerature, the importance of cruise type missles and defense against them and air strategy against a determined and courageous foe. All paid for with blood in a war that needn't have happened. Just my view as I remember it.
Many Argentines also view themselves as being very "European." Some look down on their South American brothers as being beneath them in this respect, being more mestizo (of mixed European and indigenous heritage) or native than Argentines. Because of this many Argentines expected to be backed by their European brothers. When this was not forthcoming, it was another blow to the country. Their greatest support came from fellow South Americans.
Most South American nations had to break free of the colonial chains in order to enjoy freedom and escape the economic stronghold countries like Spain, Portugal, and Holland had over them. Many followed the lead of the United States, and Argentina's original constitution was molded after the United States'. Some of this disdain remains to this day along with much resentment towards the U.S. for our meddling in their national affairs -- Banana republics, our support of abusive governments, including those of Argentina and Chile.
CPiolo
CPiolo
Englishman, what discreet courtesies, if any, were shown Lady Fieldhouse (Midge) in an effort to avoid abject embarrassment, considering her notoriety as a Jehovah’s Witness, for herself and those in attendance during official functions which always perform patriotic flourishes, such as, God Save the Queen, etc. that I was not afforded during similar circumstances as a child and Jehovah’s Witness, then having to endure the scorn of my peers for years so Jehovah’s Name may be sanctified?
Or, because of her "leverage" did she "play" it both ways without social repercussion from either peer group?
Flip
Dammit, Englishman,
Why aren't we hearing Henry Purcell whilst reading your posts?
Jerome
Who has added Va Pensiero to his funeral music programme
