Trinity- True or False (page 7)

defd

jgnat

I am interested in the conversation you and I were having at the outset of today. What happened to that? No i am not interested in talking with littletoe.

LittleToe

Defd:
These were your opening comments:

I know from going door to door that people are generally divided as to who God is. What are your thoughts? Is Jesus ALMIGHTY God?

I'm interested in the subject of the Deity of Christ, but not the Trinity per se.

Thomas gives us the best direct implication of the disciples' primative feelings on the subject, hence my question. But it appears that you want to take your ball and go home - fine by me. No sleep lost here, but I hope it haunts ya

Jgnat:Feel free to pursue it with him. Like Hellrider, I think he's full of shyte. He hasn't got anywhere near the candor of the bible writers that he allegedly respects, and as such has dropped in my estimation...

Midget-Sasquatch

I agree with Ozzie and Classicist in that this can't be resolved solely on the canon texts. First, the texts themselves give different views of JC. Second and with the first point in mind, how can it be decided which texts were inspired or not? (Nice summary of the argument for tradition by the way Classicist - even if I really don't side with specific RC traditions ).

The trinity is a nice job of harmonizing these differences, but I'm intuitively inclined to side with some of the heretical works, like some gnostics views of JC and even that of Origen.

Hellrider

DefD,I realise you refuse to discuss these things with me, because you have NO evidence to back up your claim that the name of God is used in the original greek manuscripts, but then was "later removed". However, you never answered another fundamental question I asked you: IF the name of God (YHWH, or the hybrid word Yahowah) was NOT used in the original manuscripts, do you then think it`s RIGHT to put the name in there, in a translation?

Whether you choose to answer or not, here are some examples of Bible paragraps that indicate that Jesus is part of the Deity, taken from this website:

http://www.contenderministries.org/jehovahswitnesses/nwt.php

...it also exposes the corrupt New World Translation:

Genesis 1:1-2

NWT: In [the] beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth proved to be formless and waste and there was darkness upon the surface of [the] watery deep; and God's active force was moving to and fro over the surface of the waters.

NIV: In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

NASB: In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.

KJV: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

DISCUSSION: The Jehovah’s Witnesses reject the doctrine of the Trinity. They believe in a non-triune God named Jehovah, they believe Jesus is “a god” subordinate to Jehovah, and they reject the notion that the Holy Spirit is a person of the Trinity. They believe that the Holy Spirit is an extension of Jehovah – an “active force” He sends out. The Hebrew words here are ruwach elohim, which are accurately translated as “Spirit of God.” Ruwach can be translated as “wind” also, but when joined in context with God, it is a reference to the Spirit of God (as Strong’s Hebrew Lexicon states, “Spirit of God, the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son”). This is the first example of the NWT forcing its doctrinal bias into the text of Scripture.

Zechariah 12:10

NWT: And I will pour out upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of favor and entreaties, and they will certainly look to the One whom they pierced through, and they will certainly wail over Him as in the wailing over an only [son]; and there will be a bitter lamentation over him as when there is bitter lamentation over the firstborn [son].

NIV: And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

NASB: I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.

KJV: And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

DISCUSSION: This passage is one of the most phenomenal Messianic prophecies, because God (Yahweh/Jehovah) is speaking in the first person about Him being the one who will be pierced through. Obviously, Jesus fulfilled this prophecy, and the Jehovah’s Witnesses recognize this as well. The implications are clear. Since this was God’s prophecy about what would happen to Him, and Jesus fulfilled this prophecy, then Jesus MUST be God. In fact, in the NWT Zechariah 12:1 indicates these are the “words of Jehovah.” [1] The NWT translators apparently missed the inclusion in this verse of the Hebrew ayth, which Strong’s indicates it is a contraction of a word that gives the meaning of “self.”

Mathew 14:33 (among others)

NWT: Then those in the boat did obeisance to him, saying: “You are really God’s Son.”

NIV: Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God."

NASB: And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, "You are certainly God's Son!"

KJV: Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

DISCUSSION: Throughout the New Testament we find people who worshiped Jesus. Since worship is an action that should be reserved for God, and the Jehovah’s Witnesses deny the deity of Jesus Christ, the NWT had to rectify these verses. The Greek word here is proskuneo. While this word can be translated as doing obeisance (which is defined as giving reverence or homage), the giveaway is the Watchtower’s inconsistency in translating this word. In every instance in the New Testament were proskuneo is given to Jesus Christ, it is translated as doing “obeisance.” Where proskuneo is directed to the Father (“Jehovah” in the NWT), they rightly translate it as “worship” (as in John 4:20).

John 1:1

NWT: In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.

NIV: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

NASB: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.KJV: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Here, every legitimate translation of the Bible reads the same – the Word (logos) was God (theos). The NWT stands alone in its contention that the Word was a god. This is to reinforce the JW doctrine that Jesus is not Jehovah, but is simply a subordinate god. The last Greek phrase in its entirety is theos en ho logos, where ho is a definite article (the). The Watchtower says that when theos is preceded by the definite article ho, it implies identity or personality. Since the first use of theos in this verse is preceded by ho, it refers to God. The second use of theos is not preceded by ho, making it an indefinite description or quality. This is simply wrong thinking. It’s an important point to make that theos without the definite article ho is used elsewhere in the New Testament in reference to Jehovah God, and is translated appropriately in the NWT (such as in Luke 20:38). They are inconsistent with this argument, positing the “indefinite quality” assertion only in reference to Jesus.

John 8:58

NWT: Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to YOU , Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.”

NIV: “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

NASB: Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

KJV: Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

DISCUSSION: There are deep doctrinal implications in the words of Jesus here. “I am” speaks to his eternality. It is also a name of God that He divulged to Moses. Exodus 3:14 says, God said to Moses, “I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' " The Greek in John 8:58 is ego eimi, where ego means “I” and eimi is a f irst person singular present indicative, to “exist”. The Septuagint provides ego eimi as the Greek words in Exodus 3:14. The Hebrew word is hayah, which is derived from the same root as Yahweh. The NWT seeks to distance Jesus’ claims to eternality or deity. Thus, it stands alone in its gross mistranslation of this verse.

Acts 20:28

NWT: Pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed YOU overseers, to shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own [Son].

NIV: Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.

NASB: Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

KJV: Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

DISCUSSION: Some more grammatical games and bracket inclusions combine to once again pervert Holy Scripture in order to deny the deity of Jesus Christ. Going through my collection of legitimate Bible translations (and some not-so good translations), I find the NWT stands alone in their mistranslation of this verse. The verse speaks of God purchasing the church “with His own blood”. This is obviously a reference to God the Son, Jesus Christ. What a powerful biblical testimony to the deity of Christ, and what an anathema to the neo-Arian doctrines of the Jehovah’s Witnesses! In order to overcome this, a little mistranslation is made to completely change the meaning and deceive their followers. Not a single extant Greek manuscript contains the word “son”.

Colossians 1:16,17

NWT: because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist,

NIV: For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

NASB: For by Him all things were created, {both} in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

KJV: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

DISCUSSION: This is one of those passages that speak clearly toward the deity of Jesus Christ and His role as the Creator of all things. It’s also one of those passages where the Watchtower Society is powerless to form an argument from the Greek, so they play the brackets game. In order to deny the deity of Jesus Christ and to buttress their argument that Jesus was simply the first of God’s creations, they insert the word “other”. The NWT reads that Jesus, as the first created being, created all “other” things. Since the Greek word for “other” is not found in the Greek manuscripts, they bracket the word to indicate that they’re inserting a word that does not belong. This additional word does not help the flow or clarity of the text, but is instead designed to attack the explicit biblical teaching of Christ’s deity and role as Creator. Greek scholar and theologian Robert Reymond referred to the addition of “other” as “sheer theological perversity…” [2] As an example of the deceptive practices of the Watchtower Society, the 1950 version of the NWT did not bracket the word “other,” making it appear that it was part of the Greek Text. Only since 1961, when pressured to do so by Bible scholars, did they add the brackets.

Titus 2:13

NWT: while we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of [the] Savior of us, Christ Jesus

NIV: while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ

NASB: looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus

KJV: Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

DISCUSSION: This verse identifies our great God and our Savior Jesus Christ as being one and the same. While an argument can be made that the KJV separates the two much like the NWT (by placing the Greek pronoun hemon, meaning “our,” in an improper location), the wording of the NWT and the additional bracketed definite article go beyond a disputed positioning of the Greek, and presents an inferior and erroneous translation that once again separates Jesus Christ from His deity.

These are just a handful of passages, the tip of the iceberg, there are many more.

Legitimate scholars in the Biblical languages and manuscripts don’t think much of the NWT. Dr. Bruce Metzger is a well-known scholar whose works are seminary standards. He used the following adjectives when describing the NWT: “a frightful mistranslation,” “erroneous,” “pernicious,” and “reprehensible.” [3] British Bible scholar H.H. Rowley stated that the NWT is “a shining example of how the Bible should not be translated.” [4] He also referred to the NWT as “an insult to the Word of God.” [5] While this list could go on, let me conclude with the words of Dr. William Barclay who stated, “It is abundantly clear that a sect which can translate the New Testament like that is intellectually dishonest.” [6]

Also, you should know that of the six GB-members that were in the NWT-committe, only two (Fredrick Frantz and George Gangas) had any knowledge at all of the greek and hebrew languages, and none had any training in the particular form of Greek used in the NT. Gangas was greek, and knew, obviosly, modern greek. This is not the greek of the NT, however. Frantz was "selftaught" in greek and Hebrew, but in a court of law, in which he was asked to translate a passage of Genesis into Hebrew, he was not able to do so. The NWT isn`t really a Bible translation, it is a corrupted version of the Bible.

jgnat

Well, I am off to work now, so I will have to pick this up this evening. Defd, I am willing to discuss the divinity of Christ based on bible accounts alone. Are you up for the challenge?

stillajwexelder

DEFD I know you will not speak to me because of the apostafest I attended but I am sure you and I are in agreement here. The trinity is hogwash. Jehovah is almighty God and Jesus is the divine Son of God and the Holy Spirit is Gods active force

Big Dog

Stilla, not that I'm a flaming trinitarian, but I always wondered at the God's active force thing, if that's the case why is the Holy Spirit given personality?

trevor

The trinity is hogwash. Jehovah is almighty God and Jesus is the divine Son of God and the Holy Spirit is Gods active force

All sorted...

Hellrider

The trinity is hogwash. Jehovah is almighty God and Jesus is the divine Son of God and the Holy Spirit is Gods active force

Care to explain the passages in my previous post, then, stillaxjwelder? If they are no match for you, I`d be glad to post more. (Defd just got writers block, so he won`t answer, but I`m very interested in the JW-perspective on this)

stillajwexelder

Care to explain the passages in my previous post, then, stillaxjwelder?

NO - I m not prepared to because I once swore online that I would never engage a trinity thread again. I can post you all the links if you like but it truly has been done to death, I replied to this thread because of recent threads I wanted to agree with Defd- intellectually lazy I know but sorry.

Hear O Israel the Lord our God is not actually one god but three in one just like Isis, Osiris and Horus. I just can not be bothered to argue what Paul said in some letters. The TRINITY is not logical and that is why so few Muslims become christians. Commonsense says God is not a Trinity - I really do not care what the scriptures say

Trinity- True or False